Author Topic: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?  (Read 99000 times)

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Offline Lass

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #375 on: June 29, 2005, 11:55:44 AM »
Oh yes, indeed. And if the information has clearly been interpreted properly, the paper is credible in that respect also. But you and I will differ there, for whether or not the interpretation is correct is very much a matter of opinion in this case.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #376 on: June 29, 2005, 11:59:14 AM »
Hey, don't knock google.  When I went into emergency,  I told the doc my symtoms and what I thought I had.  He shook his head and said I probably was mistaken.  Well, guess who was right.  My data from google didn't guide me wrong and it  was confirmed by other doctors, tests,  and surgery produced farther evidence google had great information.

To me this debate is failing because JKendrick and his opposition are being too emotional.  Whereas,  some of us are just here reading and trying to understand something we know very little but hope to learn more, understand, and gain enough information so we can gain our own opinions, no matter what they may or may not be.

Meanwhile,  it seems no one has answered by simple question about medical records of Alexei from Dr. Derevenko.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #377 on: June 29, 2005, 12:32:55 PM »
"it  was confirmed by other doctors, tests,  and surgery" Is that not the very CRUX of my point?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #378 on: June 29, 2005, 12:48:50 PM »
Yes, and, guess what, I agree.

I am not the enemy in this debate.  Like I said,  I've always thought Alexei had hemophilia.  However, JKendricks has presented some interesting theories and doubts have entered by thoughts on this subject.  So,  if it is true Alexei had hemophilia then it shouldn't be hard to prove it in this debate with hard facts.

Alexei's medical reports by Dr. D. would tell us his views and give us valuable information.

Here is where we must turn first so we can go forward with this debate.

Do they exist?

If they do not exist did he write any letters to other doctors to whom he discussed Alexei's condition?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #379 on: June 29, 2005, 01:08:51 PM »
Quote
Meanwhile,  it seems no one has answered by simple question about medical records of Alexei from Dr. Derevenko.

AGRBear


That's because there is no answer.  Just like the fact that there is no answer to that most critical of questions asked earlier in this thread about the total lack of evidence of bleeding gums that should have been expected when Alexei was teething as a toodler and again when he was losing his baby teeth as a young boy.  If they have no answer, they deal with it the only way they know how... by turning it into a personal attack.

No one has ever found any of Alexei's actual medical records.  Despite everything the "FA" has attempted to claim, no medical specialist of any kind who had actually seen the Tsarevich Alexei in the flesh and had actually diagnosed that most famous of patients in person has ever been known to have written the word "haemophilia" down on paper in black and white on any written medical record directly connected to Alexei's case.

The direction this thread keeps taking away from its original topic just goes to show that it's never a wise idea to get involved in any game that's being played on a field where the referee is also the captain of the opposing team.

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #380 on: June 29, 2005, 01:20:01 PM »
and yet, JK STILL refuses to even answer the question raised.

Offline etonexile

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #381 on: June 29, 2005, 01:42:52 PM »
Quote

That's because there is no answer.  Just like the fact that there is no answer to that most critical of questions asked earlier in this thread about the total lack of evidence of bleeding gums that should have been expected when Alexei was teething as a toodler and again when he was losing his baby teeth as a young boy.  If they have no answer, they deal with it the only way they know how... by turning it into a personal attack.

No one has ever found any of Alexei's actual medical records.  Despite everything the "FA" has attempted to claim, no medical specialist of any kind who had actually seen the Tsarevich Alexei in the flesh and had actually diagnosed that most famous of patients in person has ever been known to have written the word "haemophilia" down on paper in black and white on any written medical record directly connected to Alexei's case.

The direction this thread keeps taking away from its original topic just goes to show that it's never a wise idea to get involved in any game that's being played on a field where the referee is also the captain of the opposing team.


Well...as most haemophiliac males seem to survive into at least boyhood....there must be a natural process for teething vs. bumps and bruises....JK...you seem an intelligent,educated man...."WHAT IS IT" with you and this haemophilia thing?....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #382 on: June 29, 2005, 01:49:17 PM »
Quote

..in part]...

>>No one has ever found any of Alexei's actual medical records.<<  >>...   no medical specialist of any kind who had actually seen the Tsarevich Alexei in the flesh and had actually diagnosed that most famous of patients in person has ever been known to have written the word "haemophilia" down on paper in black and white on any written medical record directly connected to Alexei's case.
.....


Can anyone tell me if this is a true statement?

Frankly,  I don't care about JKendrick's, Forum Admin.'s or anyone elses medical background because with or without a medical degree, this answer can be presented as a simple "yes" or "no".

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #383 on: June 29, 2005, 02:12:05 PM »
etonexile, it appears other posters are concern because of JKendrick's interest in one of the claimants.  Here was his answer on another thread:

Quote
...[in part]....
Whether there might be a claimant behind any single given medical hypothesis or not, it still makes absolutely no difference to the final results of that same medical research whatsoever.  It does *NOT*, in any way, shape, or form, ever serve to diminsh those same new medical conclusions to even the slightest degree.

This particular thread of discussion is devoted to the subject of haemophilia. It is not about claimants.  So... Let's please stay on track.

The published paper in the American Journal of Hematology has concluded with a very different diagnosis for Alexei's dyscrasias, but it makes no mention at all of any specific claimant.  That same medical paper has been fully assessed by a recognised peer review panel of experts in the fields of both haematology and oncology, and it has been judged by those very same experts to be both medically sound and fully suitable for publication.

....JK
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline etonexile

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #384 on: June 29, 2005, 02:38:10 PM »
All very cool,calm,and collected there Bear....but why shouldn't we consider the various candidates and their claims...however absurd?....and one recently was very absurd....and still sending me e-mails....laughing at his naive supporters.....



OMG...I want certain people on my defense team should I commit murder....they will NEVER submit.....O.J. Simpson...move over.....

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #385 on: June 29, 2005, 02:55:32 PM »
Quote
Because we're asking questions doesn't mean we are not going to come to the same conclusion as the doctors Forum Admin. has provided.

I think all too often some posters forget that many of us are  here  just to chit-chat and learn something we didn't know yesterday.

I for one know very little about hemophilia and the medical records of Alexei or who has studied what is available.

These questions caused me to think about the fact that doctors back in 1917 didn't know what we know today, so, why couldn't Alexei had a different blood disorder?

Apparently, there is a difference of opinion.

This makes a good debate.

And, I don't believe I've voiced that the doctors of today who have studied Alexei's medical records are incorrect.  Why would I?  I didn't know anyone had.   From what I've understood none of the medical records had survived.  As for photographs of Alexie's  bruises,  I had never heard of these either.

So, please,  help those of us to learn more so we can be better informed.

Now, I'm off to read some of these articles mentioned by other posters.  I am looking for the answer about Alexei having a raise  temperature with his bouts of bleeding and if this is or is not a common symptom of one suffering hemophilia.  



Here's just a little light reading to begin with for those who might be interested in looking into some of the alternatives:

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic987.htm  
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic979.htm  
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000586.htm  
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000571.htm  
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003270.htm  

... and for those who aren't interested in the alternatives at all...

Here are five examples of sites devoted to haemophilia that list the symptoms of that best known of blood diseases.  You're welcome to go through those lists of the known symptoms of haemophilia and tell us all exactly where you see evidence of any of Alexei's other known symptoms.. such as a rising temperature, fever, severe pallor (evidence of jaundice?), irregular heartbeat, delirium.. and of course the symptom that made Rasputin so undeservedly famous as a healer.. unexplained sudden recovery.

... and let's not forget Prince Leopold's symptom of epileptic-like seizures at the height of his most serious episodes..

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/6481-3.asp  
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/9339/10115/216738.html?d=dmtHealthAZ  
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/en.asp?TopicID=226&AreaID=1322&LinkID=925  
http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/articles/haemophilia.html  
http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&con=505#q2

In fact, Hemophilia really only has one symptom...  and just that one symptom alone.. the symptom of Bleeding.  The only other questions to be asked are the location, the form, and the cause of the bleeding and the degree of severity.  Any additional symptoms that accompany the bleeding, whether the bleeding is just a bruise or it's a life threatening hemorrhage, those additional symptoms are not the direct result of a clotting factor deficiency.

Either those additional symptoms are completely secondary to the bleeding... caused by the bleeding having made the body vulnerable to some other outside problem or infection... or the bleeding isn't caused by hemophilia at all.  It's caused by some other blood disease that actually includes those additional symptoms.

In haemophilia, the bleeding itself has no direct connection to any symptoms of fever.  If an excessively long bleeding episode exposes the body to infection.. then it's the infection that might cause a fever .  The bleeding has nothing to do with it.

If, however, the fever and bleeding are obviously connected... with the intensity of both the bleeding and the fever clearly linked hand in hand as they noticeably increase and decrease together in severity... then it is *not* haemophilia. It's some other blood disease.

... and here's one just for those who insist on pushing the notion of X-linked inheritance to support their favourite theory..

The link below is to the Gene Map location Xq28.  The highlighted point on this page is for an enzyme known as G6PD, which is short for Glucose-6-Phosphate Dehydrogenase.  G6PD is one of the most common causes of haemolytic anaemia.  In fact, G6PD Deficiency is the most common disease causing enzyme in humans with more than three hundred known variants....

But... Just for me.. :-)  Look just a little bit closer at this same tiny section of the human gene map.. and then count five positions down from the highlighted position for G6PD... and what do you see?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mapview/maps.cgi?ORG=hum&CHR=X&maps=loc-r.morbid.gene&R1=on&query=G6PD&VERBOSE=ON&ZOOM=3

No.. Your eyes do not deceive you.  There it is. The human gene map location for the AP Board's favourite gene... F8... the Factor VIII Gene.. the X-linked recessive cause of classic Haemophilia... and it's sitting almost right next door to G6PD..  one of the most common known causes of another blood disorder called Haemolytic Anaemia.

And there you have it. Only four other gene points on that gene map separating the known cause of classic haemophilia and one of the most common causese of haemolytic anaemia. Both in the same place on the long arm of the X-Chromosome and both inherited in the same fashion. Just five positions away from the F8 gene of haemophilia, G6PD, one of the most common genetic causes of haemolytic anaemia, a blood disorder that is known to be the cause of easy bruising, bleeding, and haemorrhage... as well as all those other additional symptoms of rising temperature, pallor, fever, irregular heartbeat, delirium, Leopold's epileptic-like fits at the height of his most serious episodes, and yes... even Alexei's most famous symptom of mysteriously spontaneous recovery... all of those very same symptoms that a diagnosis of haemophilia simply cannot explain.

Please see:
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic900.htm  

And that's just one known cause of the platelet disorders of haemolytic anaemia that can be found on the same X-Chromosome. There's more where that one came from.

Oh... and the most common cause of excessive and irregular bleeding? An abnormally low platelet count. Not a clotting factor deficiency.

http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual_ha/sec3/ch49/ch49c.html  

So... Is anyone starting to see it yet?.  Or are you all still going to keep on fighting it tooth and nail?

Anyone here who continues to doubt any of this information is totally free to take anything at all that I have posted on this thread to their closest haematologist and ask for confirmation. You don't need to go any further than the closest hospital or university medical school... and I'm not the least bit concerned about what any recognised haematolgist is going to tell you about all of this same medical information... because it has already been approved by a full medical review of their peers.

Finelly

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #386 on: June 29, 2005, 04:18:02 PM »
Etonexile - having now received one of those pms myself, all I have to say is that this is EXACTLY why I wear stainless steel pots on my head.  To prevent the alien radio waves from getting thru.

Offline lexi4

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #387 on: June 29, 2005, 09:06:07 PM »
I feel so left out. I got one pm from that claimant and no more.   :( ;D ;D
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Finelly

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #388 on: June 29, 2005, 09:17:42 PM »
Hey, I only got one.  Wanna make a club?

Offline lexi4

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #389 on: June 29, 2005, 09:42:35 PM »
Quote
Hey, I only got one.  Wanna make a club?


Yes!  I love clubs.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"