Author Topic: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?  (Read 99718 times)

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Finelly

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #390 on: June 29, 2005, 09:48:29 PM »
What should we name our club?  And we need a secret handshake and stuff....

Lizameridox

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #391 on: June 29, 2005, 11:27:21 PM »
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 To make a valid argument that he may not have had hemophilia if one lacks sound DNA evidence that he did not, one needs to consider not only the most spectacular incidents of his suffering but the aggregate of those episodes that happened far more often. Remember, Alexei was not a normal child when it came to boyhood bumps and bruises......    Try as one might, one cannot dismiss what the majority of Alexei's episodes point to -- a coagulation disorder.


Alexei Nikolaevich's actual medical records have probably been misfiled somewhere in the State Archives of the Russian Federation.  According to Pierre Gilliard, Dr. Derevenko told him confidentially soon after he became Alexei's tutor that what he had was hemophilia.   It is unwise to dismiss 99 per cent of Alexei's episodes just because the one we do have the most documentation of (including the one extant medical record and the attempt by Count Fredericks to obfuscate a leak of the doctors' diagnosis) brought on secondary symptoms over and above the primary one of massive hemorrhage.  

Thrombocytopenia per se is not a disease in itself but a symptom of disease, and manifests itself in superficial bleeding into the skin.  Alexei bled into his joints quite often and developed problems with his joints, as is typical of a hemophiliac.   Hemolytic anemia leads to leg ulcers, which Alexei never had.  That disease does not present itself until later in life than young childhood, when as is typical of a child suffering from a moderate to severe case of hemophilia, Alexei bruised as he learned to walk.  It sounds like someone else altogether developed end-stage leukemia later in a much longer life than fourteen years, doesn't it???   The Tsarevich's recoveries from hemophilic episodes were NEVER spontaneous, by the way:  it took the boy months to get his strength back, to straighten out his leg and to get to the point when he could spend an afternoon with his father on an outing.  

'Alexei's recovery will be slow,' the Emperor wrote to his mother after his fever had broken and the threat to his life had passed.  The breaking of the boy's fever was not a complete recovery but the turning point that began it.  The exhausted Alexei still needed to regain his appetite and his strength.  The blood that had pooled in his hip joint and upper leg still had to be reabsorbed -- part of the normal recovery process N., A., and their son expected thanks to their experience with the many other episodes that had preceded this particular one at Spala.   According to the specialist literature available to the Imperial doctors at the time Count Fredericks wrote his bulletin, those episodes were typical not of the spectacular one-time scenario theory being presented as if to eclipse everything else the boy suffered, but of a bleeding disease that doctors of the 19th century had only recently begun to codify shortly before the birth of the Tsarevich.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lizameridox »

Lizameridox

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #392 on: June 30, 2005, 07:13:12 AM »
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The direction this thread keeps taking away from its original topic just goes to show that it's never a wise idea to get involved in any game that's being played on a field where the referee is also the captain of the opposing team.


I recall saying at one point that I had imposed a few conditions on this thread in order to keep speculations pure, and to avoid any discussion of claimants.  

If the Tsarevich-Martyr in fact had some other disease that mimicked hemophilia, it really shouldn't lead to such squabbles.  But having no definitive proof since we lack documentation of a certain gene marker, look at the field day we are having out of all proportion to this question -- that was originally asked by someone who brought up William Lavery's claim.  

Alexei was murdered in 1918, so the skeptical may never know what he had unless the bulk of his medical records were to turn up or DNA testing is performed on remains that are undeniably his.  But the important thing is how he rose above his suffering every time, regardless of its nature.  It was never Rasputin that healed the boy, and never 'spontaneous' that he did recover from every bleeding episode but the last one.   There is nothing mysterious or that lends itself to a conspiracy theory about the power of the human spirit.

Offline pinklady

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #393 on: June 30, 2005, 07:39:54 AM »
The episode at Spala was not a spontaneous recovery. After the bleeding stopped it took a month of recovery for Alexei before the family was able to move back to Tsarskoe Selo. Almost a year passed before Alexei could walk again.
For several months his left leg refused to straighten out, and the doctors had to apply a metal triangle with sliding sides which could be moved as the leg permitted it to be moved. Slowly the leg was able to be extended this way.
Alexei underwent a series of hot mudbaths for  more than a year after Spala as a form of treatment for the limp he had acquired.
And throughout all this time (more than a year) official photos of Alexei had to be posed either seated or on steps so that the bent leg would appear normal.
So this demonstrates that recovery for the poor child was slow.

Offline etonexile

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #394 on: June 30, 2005, 09:09:26 PM »
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What should we name our club?  And we need a secret handshake and stuff....


Having recieved 4 pms from the "Mad Claimant"....I claim priority in the secret handshake and funny walks department....should I block his messages....or just see how silly he can be...decisions...?

Finelly

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #395 on: June 30, 2005, 09:11:52 PM »
Wow, that IS a tough decision.  It's giving me a headache just thinking about it........

Hey, my neighbor has been experiencing severe bruising for no apparent reason.  I diagnosed hemophilia, of course, but her dr. told her it's a Vitamin C deficiency.....so maybe that's what Alexei had....

Offline Lass

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #396 on: July 01, 2005, 03:14:56 AM »
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Having recieved 4 pms from the "Mad Claimant"....I claim priority in the secret handshake and funny walks department....should I block his messages....or just see how silly he can be...decisions...?


You have no right to call any member of the board "mad", etonexile. As if scorn and mockery were not enough, you feel the need to name-call as well.

Offline pinklady

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #397 on: July 01, 2005, 04:25:47 AM »
I am feeling so left out - I have received no pm's  at all.... :( ::) :-/


Finelly

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #398 on: July 01, 2005, 10:33:38 AM »
An example of "mad":  A person with a family history of schizophrenia who happens to believe that people all over the world are secretly watching him and know every move he makes.

Pinklady, darling, you are missing nothing except a good laugh!

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #399 on: July 01, 2005, 10:48:56 AM »
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...[in part]....
Thrombocytopenia per se is not a disease in itself but a symptom of disease, and manifests itself in superficial bleeding into the skin.  Alexei bled into his joints quite often and developed problems with his joints, as is typical of a hemophiliac.   Hemolytic anemia leads to leg ulcers, which Alexei never had.  That disease does not present itself until later in life than young childhood, when as is typical of a child suffering from a moderate to severe case of hemophilia, Alexei bruised as he learned to walk.  It sounds like someone else altogether developed end-stage leukemia later in a much longer life than fourteen years, doesn't it???   The Tsarevich's recoveries from hemophilic episodes were NEVER spontaneous, by the way:  it took the boy months to get his strength back, to straighten out his leg and to get to the point when he could spend an afternoon with his father on an outing.  

....


So,  it wasn't  Thrombocytopenia  because he never suffered from ulsers and because it  is never found in young chldren?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Tasha_R

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #400 on: July 01, 2005, 11:21:59 AM »
Pink Lady,

I believe the question of "spontaneous" referred more to the fact that the bleeding stopped, as opposed to a full "recovery".  When one experiences a bleeding episode, it takes about 6 months for all the blood to be reabsorbed by the body, not matter what type of disorder.  At least, that's according to my doctor.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Tasha

Offline Lass

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #401 on: July 01, 2005, 11:47:16 AM »
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An example of "mad":  A person with a family history of schizophrenia who happens to believe that people all over the world are secretly watching him and know every move he makes.

And when did it suddenly become acceptable to call someone who you think is mentally ill "mad"? I don't care who that's said about, but it's out of order. 'Tis a wonder one of the mods hasn't edited your post.

Offline RussiaSunbeam1918

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #402 on: July 01, 2005, 12:02:52 PM »
On the heamoophilia bit:
I was told there were 200 blood diseases and 36 were simmilar to Alexei's.....and the term has changed a bit over time, so wouldn't heamophilia have a different meaning now, and it's odds would only be one out of thirty six? :-/

Offline Kimberly

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #403 on: July 01, 2005, 02:05:02 PM »
Dear Bear,thrombocytopenia can occur in the newborn but Alexeis symptoms dont really match this disorder. Alloimmune thrombocytopenia is caused when maternal blood cells attack the foetus's cells and the baby is born with abnormally low platelets. 10-20% die of intra-cranial bleeds from the delivery. Thrombocytopenia later in life can be caused by abnormal bone marrow production of white cells,Aplastic Anaemia.abnormal spleen. The symptoms can include nose bleeds and tiny red dots forming a rash (purpura) and bleeding from the gums. Do these symptoms fit Alexei? I really feel that the poor lad suffered from Haemophilia but i find these discussions both informative and fascinating.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #404 on: July 01, 2005, 03:31:53 PM »
Thanks Kimberly.

On p. 47 of THE ESCAPE OF ALEXEI, SON OF TSAR NCHOLAS II which is about the claimant Vasily Filatov,  there is  a copy  [I assume it's authentic] of a letter from Evgeny Botkin to "Mr. Chairman" of the Provincial Executive Committe.  The letter talks about Alexei's condition there is no date attached:

>>...Alexei Nikolaevich is subject to pains in the joints from bumps that are complety unavoidable....and that are accompanied by seepage of fluids and resultant excruciting pains.  In these events the boy suffers day and night with inexpressible pain..."

No mention of the word "hemophilia" in this particular letter.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152