The Russian Revolution - Causes and/or Prevention?

[Elisabeth]

I hope Goula decides to come back. I think it's a shame that he was made to feel so unwelcome. I wish I'd been paying more attention to this thread overall, or I would have written an instant message of support to him. Please could we all just agree to disagree, without resorting to name-calling and other forms of personal attack? Everyone here is entitled to his or her opinion.

I remember how vociferously I was attacked when I first entered this forum. Most of these attacks were based on instantaneous, unthoughtful and unfair misreadings of my views. At the time, only AGRBear was kind enough to send me words of encouragement. Otherwise I would have quit, too, just like Goula.

But Goula is only one of many unhappy members of this forum. Over the last several months I have received numerous messages from people who tell me they would like to participate in discussions but feel uncomfortable doing so because of the level of animosity in many of the postings. I am not saying that I myself have not been guilty of the occasional sarcastic remark or thoughtless put-down. Sometimes we offend others without meaning to. But could we all please try to moderate our tone? - Not only for the sake of civility, but also for that of thoughtful intellectual debate.  

[Forum Admin]

Look, I am very purposefully NOT taking any side in this issue re: Goula.  All I am saying is that the last few weeks have seen an escalation of personal attacks, hurt feelings and a decrease in the number of on topic, civil postings. I just wanted everyone to be more aware that an evironmnent may still exist in here where ANYONE feels unwelcomed or afraid to participate and THAT is something which should sadden us all.

[Maria_Romanov_fan]

Look, I am very purposefully NOT taking any side in this issue re: Goula.  All I am saying is that the last few weeks have seen an escalation of personal attacks, hurt feelings and a decrease in the number of on topic, civil postings. I just wanted everyone to be more aware that an evironmnent may still exist in here where ANYONE feels unwelcomed or afraid to participate and THAT is something which should sadden us all.

Absolutly correct, once again FA. We have to be nice people!

[Elisabeth]

Back On Topic
    I am convinced that even if Russia had not entered WWI there would have been a revolution...without France's massive loans (thus without the mutual defence treaty) the financial situation in Russia would have gotten even more chaotic and the revolutionary situation of 1905 may have gotten even bloodier ....Of course this is a lttle bit like discussing angels on pinheads -- still there are my two kopeks worth!
rskkiya

Back on topic. If Russia hadn't entered WWI, then there would have been no WWI (a gigantic, mighty, overcome-able IF!!!), in which case, no, there would have been no revolution in 1917. The revolution would have been delayed, and come perhaps 15 or 20 years later, during the reign of the invalid Alexei II. It would have been a happy revolution, like the Glorious Revolution in England in 1688 - peaceable, no beheadings of crowned royalty. The Duma would have simply seized power, to the eternal rejoicing of the zemstvos, the middle class, and the upper peasantry. Russia would have escaped Judgment Day. It would have been a Very Good Thing. But impossible, historically speaking. Unless there are any experts out there on WWI who think Russia could have stayed out of that conflict... speak now or forever hold your peace! I'm curious to know myself, actually. Would it have been possible?

[rskkiya]

Hello Elizabeth,
You made a very good point about WWI, however the loans many made under Alexander III as well as Nicholas II came from from France and they came with some strings attached...
Personally I would guess that in Russia - without these loans-  the economic situation could have gotten more chaotic and thus I would guess at an earlier revolution rather than 10-15 years later!

rskkiya

[AGRBear]

Germany was on the march and I don't think it entered "Bully Billie's"  mind that he and his Krupp guns couldn't march right in and take parts of Russia...

I have a book that holds thousand pages of information showing the families who  had migr. into Russia from Germany.  He  had these names gathered before WWI broke.  He had plans to court these Germans in Bess., southern Ukraine, around Kherson, the Volga, Caucasus and Crimea with hopes in using them as his own.

Oh yes,  "Bully Billie" had big plans for Russia.

Yes, the war between Germany under Kaiser Wilhelm [Bully Billie] and  Russia under Nicholas II was inevitable.

AGRBear

[rskkiya]

Back on topic. Unless there are any experts out there on WWI who think Russia could have stayed out of that conflict... speak now or forever hold your peace! I'm curious to know myself, actually. Would it have been possible?

  No, I don't think that this was an option - not unless Russia wanted to have all the millions of francs that the French Govenment had loaned to then demanded back IMMEDIATELY -- this would have crippled the Tsarist government!
   Beyond this, such an act would have been a huge "black eye' for Russia's diplomatic standing with the rest of Europe.

[AGRBear]

How did the Bolshviks/communisit handle the loan to the French?

AGRBear

[rskkiya]

GOOD QUESTION!

I will look into that!

[ilias_gr]

I can't help observing certain similarities between the French and the Russian revolution.

1.We have two absolute monarchies
2.The character Louis XVI resembles that of Nickolas II-both rather weak and undecisive not very talented in rulling.
3.The negative way the people thought of Alexandra-"the german spy" and Marie Antoinette-"the Austrian whore".
4.I also observe the same withdrawal from the aristocrats by Marie Antoinette and Alexandra for different reasons each.

Marie Antoinette restrained herself within a select group of friends ignoring the oldest french aristocratic families which in my opinion was her fatal mistake.Had she had the aristocrats by her side during the events of 1789 she would have made it through-besides we know that the most dirty rumors and propaganda against her started from inside the palace.
Alexandra also alienated herself from the court.Had she kept the court by her side let's say by welcoming them to parties making them feel welcome and useful she would also have them by her side and they wouldn't be plotting against her and Nickolas.

I believe that revolutions start from within the "system".Had both sovereigns had the support of their courts they would have made it through the upheavals.

Plus an irony:Alexandra was a fan of Marie Antoinette and definately knew her story.She even had a painting of her's in her appartments in the Alexander palace.Shouldn't se have known better than repeat her mistake regarding the court?

Does anyone think my conclusion is right?

[Elisabeth]

You're right that the system of government - absolute monarchy - was at the heart of the problem in both the French and Russian Revolutions.

The other similarities you list are definitely there, too (you could even go on: e.g., both Marie Antoinette and Alexandra failed to produce a male heir in the first several years of marriage, which in both cases became a cause for concern). But I think these particular similarities are largely coincidental, and when they're not, they're more symptoms than causes of a revolutionary situation (e.g., the hatred for the "Austrian woman" and the "German spy").

The actual causes of the French and Russian revolutions were far more complex and went much deeper than the personalities of individual rulers. Few historians can bring themselves to "blame" Louis XVI for the French Revolution, seeing it as something inevitable, that had been building for a century or more. I think we should look at the Russian Revolution the same way.

So I suppose I am saying that there are other, deeper historical similarities between the French and Russian Revolutions that someone better versed in French history than I might care to share with us!

[ilias_gr]

Thanks Elisabeth! I was missing the greater picture and causes!

[Silja]

However, although 18th century France was nominally an absolute monarchy, in reality Louis XVI was less able to implement reform than Nicholas II would have been it seems. Louis wanted reform, if not the abolition of the ancien regime or of privilege, but he wanted a fairer tax system among other things. But in France the king had become as much a victim of the system as such as any other. After reconvening the parlements (judicial courts) Louis had no chance of reforming anything in the end because no matter what his finance ministers sought to do, everything would meet with total resistance from the parlements.  These did not care about reform as it would endanger their powerful position and the advantage they had over both the crown AND the ordinary people.
By 1789 the ancien regime had become static, incapable of reform from within, and there was not much the king could do about it.

I think in Russia the situation was not quite as hopeless regarding the possibility of reform.

[bluetoria]

On the same lines, too, I find it interesting that the characters of Marie Antoinette & Alix were so different & yet eventually they found themselves in so similar a situation. In many ways M-A had the harder time because not only was she not in love with her husband, but she (almost like Vicky) was constantly trying to live up to her mother's demands & expectations.
While Alix had a sick son & this is widely appreciated, so too did M-A but her elder son, who died, is rarely mentioned. And at the end of everything she had the sorrow of hearing her own son testify against her.

[tobik]

This surface deep overlap between the French and the Russian Revolutionary struggles was not lost on the Bolsheviks who constantly evoked the similarities between the Russian Revolution and the French one (and for that matter the later Paris Commune), in much of their propaganda.  See the film New Babylon or various ROSTA posters for evidence of this.

Interestingly the Bolsheviks also derived much of their revolutionary symbolism and pagentry from the French Revolution.  The ceremonial funerals of 'freedom fighters' are the most important examples of this influence, but there are many other examples, from postcards showing Marat etc. to the fantastic revolutionary porcelain of the SPF in Petersburg.