Tatiana Anecdotes

[edubs31]

I always found these types of things of endearing.

I take the opposite view. To me, it shows just how painfully ignorant they were of the world, and the value of the resources available to them.

But for Tatiana to think a pair of gloves might be far more expensive then they really were speaks to their modest/humble taste in things. Tatiana surely believed something as important to a woman as a simple pair of gloves would naturally have to cost a lot of money

I think it's more likely that Tatiana had no idea whether 100 rubles was expensive or not, and chose gloves as a simple tangible example.

That's certainly a fair assessment. Do we know how old Tatiana was when she made these comments? If it turns out she was like eight then I think you can write it off to the sort of lack of understanding all children have about the value of money. Of course we also have that story during the war of Tatiana and Olga going into the little gift shop on their way back home from the hospital and having no money on them to purchase anything (yes?). By then they were of an age where everyone understands money and has at least some concept of the value of things.

The fact that they were never even given a basic crash course on business math and economics should probably tell you something though. Ignorant? Yes. Painfully so? I'm not so certain. They were taught the things (right or wrong) that their parents and instructors figured would be applicable to their lives and deemed necessary. What does a Grand Duchess need to worry about the value of money anymore than a peasant/proletariat needs to speak multiple languages, play the piano, and become versed in medicine/medical care?

[Olga Maria]

The Grand Duchesses and Alexei know rubles and kopecks. The only thing they don't know is their purchasing power or how much it can buy, so I agree with this:

Quoted from Sarushka:I think it's more likely that Tatiana had no idea whether 100 rubles was expensive or not, and chose gloves as a simple tangible example.

I assume their parents concurred not to make them learn that (and also how much money they had) in fear of making them greedy or spoiled (possibly they thought of 1 Timothy 6:10 - "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.") We can't deny it - people have tendency to become like those as said in that verse (although we won't ever know how it will turn out for them if they knew those things). I think Nicholas & Alexandra thought of this:

Quoted from edubs31:They were taught the things (right or wrong) that their parents and instructors figured would be applicable to their lives and deemed necessary.

and:

Quoted from Preved:because she lived in an environment where rent, fuel bills and food costs were not an issue.

Although not knowing those hasn't done them any direct harm, and it helped them to be unspoilt as they were, hence finding them very lovely, I also however agree with this:

Quoted from Sarushka :To me, it shows just how painfully ignorant they were of the world, and the value of the resources available to them.

But I think they used almost everything of their money for charity even if they did not know how much it all was.

Lastly, that lack of knowledge could have quite affected them well had they survived. They would have fallen prey to extortionists. However they were 'lucky' not to suffer that (alas! They have suffered a far more terrible thing) ~

 

Quoted from edubs31:At the same time she probably would be amazed to learn how much more expensive something far more extravagant but far less useful was. .

Indeed. I wouldn't be shocked to read someday that they were extremely surprised to know how much a tiny piece of diamond is!

[edubs31]

Good stuff there Shandroise and I largely agree.

One think I do see a potential problem with, and where I agree with the sentiment expressed by Sarushka, regarding their disconnect from the "real" world, is that each of these GDs were in line to one day be potential Queen/Empresses. Alexandra should have known as well as anyone to what degree of responsibility that carried. By 1916 Olga was easily of marrying age and Tatiana could have been leaving the family for a foreign born prince in no time as well. So the potential former co-rulers of a European country had not a clue about economics? Sounds to me like something of an oversight.

Do we have any way of knowing how much more education Alexei was being given in the subject than his sisters? Obviously from the standpoint of his (delusional) parents he would have probably had a number of years before needing to be versed in the intricacies of currency and economics, but certainly the Tsarevich should at least know the price of a gallon of milk, so to speak...yes?

[Olga Maria]

I'm very sorry edubs for a very late reply. I thought well about this (later you'd know it's not obvious) but the deeper I thought, the more I don't know how to say what I wanted! lol, finally...

I agree very much with you. I think even if the grand duchesses would not be able to marry crowned heads or heirs to thrones, they still need to learn about spending money and budgeting for they could be mothers or charitable women who would see to it that their money/resources are used efficiently.
Same (though more importantly) with Alexei because he would be Tsar who would check financial documents someday. If he doesn't have any clue about economics (even that price of a gallon of milk that you said), it would be a disaster.
As for their parents, the least (or best) they could do to help their children learn about economics is to expose them to stores, to let them experience buying. I remember one of their teachers remarked that the imperial children had difficulty understanding Math because they had little knowledge of the life outside. Every mathematical principle taught them did not make sense because they hadn't known/seen those being applied to real-life situations.
Because Alix, with Nicholas' support, didn't want her children to be contaminated with the pernicious ideas of the society, she sealed them off without thinking that she deprived them from learning substantial knowledge for their future lives.

Strange but I think that decision of Nicholas & Alexandra was part of God's story of their lives. OTMAA hadn't lived long enough to hold money themselves. So even if they learned economics while they were still young, it would just be useless for they would not be able to use their knowledge of it later.

[Kassafrass]

We hear so often of all these mistakes that Nicholas and Alexandra made as rulers, but when you dig deeper you see that, although they loved their children dearly, they caused them possibly the greatest of harm by keeping them from the real world for so long. But can we really criticize them for wanting to protect their children from the horrors of the real world? It's truly not a one sided argument in the slightest.

Maybe one day soon I'll do a write up about it as it intrigues me so much.

[TimM]

Of course, we're looking back on them from a century later.  it was a much different world back then.

[Lady Macduff]

I wouldn't put that glove story any later than 1911. The girls were sheltered in the extreme, but selling things at the Livadia bazaars would have given them a relative idea of how much things cost.

[Kassafrass]

I think even though there is a century's difference it's still easy to see that they were sheltered more than most people their age. Don't you think?

[edubs31]

I'm very sorry edubs for a very late reply. I thought well about this (later you'd know it's not obvious) but the deeper I thought, the more I don't know how to say what I wanted! lol, finally...

And I'm equally sorry for the late response to your thoughtful post...

I agree very much with you. I think even if the grand duchesses would not be able to marry crowned heads or heirs to thrones, they still need to learn about spending money and budgeting for they could be mothers or charitable women who would see to it that their money/resources are used efficiently.

Yes, and of course a as they grew older their contact with those from outside the imperial circle grew. In their nursing duties alone they worked alongside of nurses and came face to face with wounded soldiers/officers who obviously had to make a regular living and presumably know how to balance a check book. That said, it seems likely that talk of money never would have come up in conversation. It would surely seem rude and out of line to speak about your personal finances to a Grand Duchess or Empress, and equally awkward for one of them to bring up the subject with ordinary Russian citizens.

Same (though more importantly) with Alexei because he would be Tsar who would check financial documents someday. If he doesn't have any clue about economics (even that price of a gallon of milk that you said), it would be a disaster. As for their parents, the least (or best) they could do to help their children learn about economics is to expose them to stores, to let them experience buying.

In defense of the imperial couple, tutors and others who were responsibly for the upbringing of the Tsarevich there was surely thought to be time to teach Alexei economics. As a young boy he was still learning basic life lessons and his father of course made a point to bring him to the front and give him some leadership experience and camaraderie with the military men he might one day have been expected to lead into battle. Knowing the price of a rifle, a uniform, or how much a soldier could afford on a month's pay was a secondary issue of remote importance compared to how a rifle was fired, how to wear a uniform properly, march, and the basics of military structure, strategy and the chain of command. Needless to say Alexei, brought up to be the future Tsar, had far more on his plate than the typical boy of his age. Add a debilitating illness on top of this and it's hard to have expected he would have accomplished much more by adolescence.

I remember one of their teachers remarked that the imperial children had difficulty understanding Math because they had little knowledge of the life outside. Every mathematical principle taught them did not make sense because they hadn't known/seen those being applied to real-life situations.

Interesting observation there and certainly something that makes perfect sense to me. When you aren't using anything more than basic math for things I can totally see how the abstract concepts of dealing with numbers can quickly make a student, like the Grand Duchess's, bored. Reading and studying novels is exciting, history is exciting, certain scientific principles (especially those relating to the field of medicine) and language can be fascinating. But math for a child of the Tsar? Who needs it! lol.

[edubs31]

Because Alix, with Nicholas' support, didn't want her children to be contaminated with the pernicious ideas of the society, she sealed them off without thinking that she deprived them from learning substantial knowledge for their future lives.

While I disagree with many of her parenting decisions I can't necessarily say she was wrong to feel this way. It would seem rather difficult for me to believe a child of the Tsar could live the same way a Grand Duke/Duchess cousin could in the first place, especially given some of the post-1905 threats to the imperial family. So I think it's unfair to have ever expected an Olga, for example, to have been as worldly or sociably knowledgable as her cousin Irina Alexandrovna, given that fact. Beyond closing them off to society and the consequences of this, again, Alexandra may wisely have seen more harm then good coming from a situation where her son and daughters were opened up more to the world. They were taught the things deemed applicable. Had the Grand Duchess's lived and the Russian Empire continued on as expected they surely all would have married princes and played out their roles with competency. How much did Alexandra or Marie Feodorovna themselves know about economics? And they became Empress's! Chances are OTMA would not have had near the responsibility their mother and grandmother had as co-rulers of a gigantic empire.

Strange but I think that decision of Nicholas & Alexandra was part of God's story of their lives. OTMAA hadn't lived long enough to hold money themselves. So even if they learned economics while they were still young, it would just be useless for they would not be able to use their knowledge of it later.

Exactly! I think a similar line of thought influenced the Tsar and Empress's decision to allow Alexei more freedom during the war years and join his father at the Front. After Spala I think they were both scarred to some degree. Pushed to their physical and emotional limits (Alexei too). They probably figured that Alexei could die just as easily suffering a nasty fall running around Alexander Park as he could touring the front the with his father...so with that in mind, why not give the boy the experience he one day may have needed, and their excitement he longed for?

Regarding the Grand Duchess's I think Alexandra and Nicholas wanted to give their daughters a happy but safe life, and school them in the necessities while allowing them to casually explore some of their own interests. Where I fault the imperial couple, and Alix in particular, is that I believe she let her own feelings of what the perfect family should be supersede those individual feelings of her daughters. She seemed to raise them as a group, a single unit of Grand Duchess's, rather than to take their individual identities into account. This reared its head at certain times in form the of Maria's occasional loneliness and, most notably, Olga's inability to control her emotions while nursing.

We hear so often of all these mistakes that Nicholas and Alexandra made as rulers, but when you dig deeper you see that, although they loved their children dearly, they caused them possibly the greatest of harm by keeping them from the real world for so long. But can we really criticize them for wanting to protect their children from the horrors of the real world? It's truly not a one sided argument in the slightest.

I aimed to touch on this subject above. Again I question the following. A) How much were N&A really keeping their children from? B) How much of those things that they "missed" or never learned in the first place would ever have been consequential to their lives? C) Given the circumstances and the need for extra security, how wrong were N&A for closing them off from the world? I mean seriously, it wasn't like Olga and Tatiana were going to duck in and out of nightclubs, booze up and dance with the gypsies until dawn with Felix & Dmitri. And even if they could do that, how many valuable life lessons were they going to learn from those experiences?

Alexandra's mistake was not in closing off her daughters to the outside world, it was in closing off herself. She buried herself in her family and the responsibilities of a mother without respect to her role as Empress.

[Kassafrass]

I aimed to touch on this subject above. Again I question the following. A) How much were N&A really keeping their children from? B) How much of those things that they "missed" or never learned in the first place would ever have been consequential to their lives? C) Given the circumstances and the need for extra security, how wrong were N&A for closing them off from the world? I mean seriously, it wasn't like Olga and Tatiana were going to duck in and out of nightclubs, booze up and dance with the gypsies until dawn with Felix & Dmitri. And even if they could do that, how many valuable life lessons were they going to learn from those experiences?

Alexandra's mistake was not in closing off her daughters to the outside world, it was in closing off herself. She buried herself in her family and the responsibilities of a mother without respect to her role as Empress.

I think you may have answered your own questions. Considering the fact that Olga and Tatiana and maybe even Maria and Anastasia had a very good chance of marrying into a country in which they would be the queen, these things - even just the little things - would be very important for them to know and understand. It was known of course that Alexei had to be groomed to be the Tsar, but I think it might be said that the girls also did just as much as their brother. Alexandra shut herself off from the real issues and the suffering of the people and essentially taught her daughters to do the same. I think we all know how Alexandra's ways of coping costed her family and the country that she swore to take care of.

[KarinK]

A translation of Claudia Bitner, from Romanov Russia Today:

Claudia on Tatiana in Tobolsk, seems they weren't exactly friends! "She inherited the nature of a mother. Very many of her traits were her mothers’: imperial character, propensity for order in life, sense of duty. She was in charge of the household regulations. She looked after Alexei Nikolaevich. She always walked with the Tsar in the yard. She was the closest to the Empress. These two were friends. Because of this, she was not taken with the Empress from Tobolsk, so as to stay with Alexei Nikolaevich. She was by far the most essential person in the family to her parents. But it seemed to me that she was not as cheerful as her mother. I don’t know why it came about, but I didn’t have anything to talk about with her and did not want to. I don’t know if it was developed and learned. She always read with Hendrikova. She loved housework. She liked to embroider and iron clothes."

When I read anecdotes like this about Tatiana, I have the feeling that she may have been like Alexandra and sometimes found it difficult to be friendly with strangers, but at the same time she had a dutiful side that meant she could be trusted to take care of things and deal with people on a practical level, without revealing as much discomfort as accounts suggest Alexandra might do.

[Olga Maria]

Many thanks for this, Karin! (also Elizabeth Smith!)

Yes, they were not close!

I didn’t have anything to talk about with her and did not want to.

I think their situation is... Claudia saw Tatiana that way, so her feelings manifested on her face. Tatiana saw that, so she ended up doubting to talk with Claudia... and we know what the result was. 

But it seemed to me that she was not as cheerful as her mother.

My first time to know someone observed this. I guess this is possible because there are accounts of Alix being cheerful (the Anastasia's jaeger incident) but none of Tatiana. However, even if there are no accounts of Tatiana laughing, for sure she had several good laughs in Tobolsk : )

[TimM]

I'm sure Tatiana did laugh at times.

[nena]

Do we have any way of knowing how much more education Alexei was being given in the subject than his sisters? Obviously from the standpoint of his (delusional) parents he would have probably had a number of years before needing to be versed in the intricacies of currency and economics, but certainly the Tsarevich should at least know the price of a gallon of milk, so to speak...yes?

Alexei Nicholaevich was, according to the most sources, bad pupil. He had been given classes of Artimethics, History, Geography, French and English. One of the main reasons for his bad marks was his illness. By 1916, he poorly multiplied two numbers. So the math wasn't his greater side. I think that he just didn't get a chance for proper education. And he was too young. So I highly doubt that he might got an idea on economics or prices. It is well known that Olga had most interest in her country and political situaion at that time. I even wonder how Nicholas II were aware of Russian's economic at age 12? Despte all that, Alexei Nicholaievich was adored by all the people that met him. And that it what matters, IMO.