Romanovs and Faith/Orthodox Religion

[Georgiy]

Holy martyrs, Passion Bearers, Unmercenaries etc etc are all Saints  in the Orthodox faith.

[Jebediha]

I believe than in Orthodox parlance that Emperor Nikolas II and his immediate family are referred to as Holy Martyrs rather than saints, that is believers who were murdered for their faith. On the other hand I believe that Grand Duchess Ella (and please correct me if I am wrong) is a both a Holy Martyr and a Saint with documented miracles.

There are stories that the Imperial family have done miricals but i don`t know if they have been documented.

[Ally Kumari]

Here you can read about Maria´s miracle:

http://www.serfes.org/royal/miracleofmaria.htm

[nena]

I am Orthodox, and I believe they are Saints --- Thanks Ally for the link -- as I said, I have read accounts by some people with miracles of IF.

[Romanov_Fan19]

What about afterlife anyone  I Say  They are in Heaven !  im Baptist

[mcdnab]

Personally devout certainly but i've always had rather an issue with the suggestion that they died for their faith! True they were murdered by a regime that was entirely secular and that regime was forceful in trying to wean its citizens from their dependance on any religion, but Nicholas II and his family were murdered because of their secular position.

[clockworkgirl21]

I don't understand why NAOTMAA were made saints, either. They died not for their beliefs, but for their position, as has been said. Why not make other murdered family member saints, too, besides Ella?

It's a little strange to me to think of someone as a saint, especially since all they did was die, and didn't even perform the three miracles needed to be a saint(is that just Catholic sainthood rules?).

Oh, and if I offended anyone, my apologies. I tried to word it as carefully as possible.

[nena]

I understand pretty well why they are saints,  for Orthodox Church they are Holly Martyrs – reasons: Their murder was first one before milion others in Russa later.

I know it is strange, we see their photos, they are normal people.

And they were. But they deserved to be Saints, because they had love to their country, in that way they gave their lives if needs. It is big love from their sides to their country. Alexandra Feodorovna didn’t want to  leave Russia. Nicholas II too. It is simply love, despite they knew what might be happen to them. Sure.  Aleksei Nicholaievich was only 13 years old!  And perfectly understood who he was, Heir, and believed in God!

Church and Tsar were close, and after all happens in Russia after that sad period, I think really they deserve Sainthood! Understand better? And miracles really happen! And Ella is saint too. For others because they didn't do something more like Ella and IF.
Don’t forget IF did many good things – opened Churches, canonized Serafim Sarovsky, helped homeless, soliders during War,  and many more..... heh, they died for their position as same time as their beliefs. But position could be different, but beliefs -no! 

And no, you don’t offended me.  I only say what I think.

Nena

[mcdnab]

Just a few points:

It the idea that they were the first ones that causes me some annoyance - they weren't the first people to die during the Russian Revolution and Civil War that followed and they were certainly not the first members of the Imperial Family to die. Nicholas and his family died on the 17 July, his brother Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovitch was almost certainly killed a month earlier around June 12/13th at Perm, and the Constantinovitchi and Ella died shortly after the Imperial family I believe.

Please correct me if I am wrong but they were recognised as martyred saints by the Church outside Russia and they were later recognised by the synod of the Russian Orthodox Church as passion bearers - and both decisions have not been without controversy. My understanding is the passion bearer in Orthodoxy is about the way in which an individual faces death in imitation of Christ.

None of the Imperial family wanted to leave Russia - but my understanding is that after the Abdication Nicholas only refused the urgent urgings for him to leave the country straight away because he wanted to be with his wife and children. once reunited they were relatively willing to leave if they could, sadly the chance was missed.

Nicholas II's decisions as Emperor and Autocrat, egged on by Alexandra were both directly and indirectly responsible for the chaos that Russia descended into and the millions that died as a result. It is perhaps unfair to blame Nicholas absolutely as it is debateable given the circumstance whether anyone would have been able to prevent it but a different more intelligent man might have been more willing to embrace the changes that early 20thCentury needed if it was to avoid chaos.

I don't think any would doubt the personal religious devotion of the Imperial couple and the rest of the Dynasty, though Alexandra's obsession, fervency and dependance on the numerous mystics that headed to the Alexander Palace was hardly conventional Orthodoxy (though I accept that there is a streak of mysticisim within the Russian Church).

Its not for me to dictate to the Russian Orthodox Church who they should or shouldn't chose to be martyrs of course and I certainly don't mean any offence to those practising members of the Orthodox Church who share their churches view on the Imperial Family as Martyrs or Passion Bearers.

[nena]

Nicholas didn't refuse to leave Russia because he wanted to stay with wife and children -- there was a chance for all members of IF to escape. It is as I said -- love to their country, where was not not important for them if they had to lost lives because of it. -- It is one respecting thing for Orthodox Church.

And as you mentioned mystic, which is really in Russian nature, complicate thing for understand, we can mention one more word -- symbol. IF was symbol of their nation and country, and protected Church. Remember Church during Soviet era was in hard position.

So IF was victims, and how to say, symbol for thousands more later after 1918, in Church view of happens. (This I mean when I said 'first of milions ...') --and things becomes very clear.

You are right, that passion bearer is way of imitation of Christ's death.

And of course NII and Alix made wrongs, all of us make too. But causes of revolution had been discussed on another thread.

And after 80, 90 'dark' years for some Russians of course they deserve Sainthood and Rehabilitation.

[Janet Ashton]

I don't think any would doubt the personal religious devotion of the Imperial couple and the rest of the Dynasty, though Alexandra's obsession, fervency and dependance on the numerous mystics that headed to the Alexander Palace was hardly conventional Orthodoxy (though I accept that there is a streak of mysticisim within the Russian Church).

I am taking this thread in a sightly different direction here, but just wanted to observe that religion is one of the areas in which Alexandra - typically - gets a rougher ride than Nicholas. We hear a great deal of her "dependence" on mystics, and yet very little of Nicholas's own dabbling with spiritualism and friends in theosophical circles, associations which started well before his marriage. I'd venture to say that the only "mystic" Alexandra showed real "dependence" on was Rasputin. I do not believe that she was responsible for the introduction of Philippe Nizier-Vachod to their household; nor was Petr Badmaev her protege, despite being described in numerous books as "a friend of Rasputin". He was very much more than that and his association with them pre-dated Rasputin by a long time.

[mcdnab]

As I am not Orthodox I wouldn't wish to offend those who are - I think that rehabilitation is a different issue to the religious questions personally I do believe that the whole family were victims of Bolshevik repression (I think Nicholas's situation is different because of his status as monarch and he must bear some responsibility for what was done in his name - however he never had any form of trial and therefore technically he was also a victim)

You said -
"Nicholas didn't refuse to leave Russia because he wanted to stay with wife and children -- there was a chance for all members of IF to escape. It is as I said -- love to their country, where was not not important for them if they had to lost lives because of it. -- It is one respecting thing for Orthodox Church. "

On this point it is worth bearing in mind that there were very few opportunities for Nicholas II and his family to escape Russia after his abdication - however the family were not unwilling to leave if the opportunity presented itself. All the male Romanov's who'd not left St Petersburg during the Provisional Government were placed under arrest after the Bolshevik Revolution only one of them - Prince Gavril Constantinovich escaped due to the intervention of Gorky. The Romanov's in the Crimea left (in the case of the Dowager Empress and Grand Duchess Xenia) under considerable pressure by their own entourage and letters from relatives in Denmark and Britain. As to Nicholas II - at Mogilev after the abdication the Empress Dowager was told to try and persuade her son to leave - she was anxious but was told it was vital for his safety that he left immediately and didn't return to Petrograd he was refusing because he wanted to be with the  Empress and his children.  Once he was imprisoned at the Alexander Palace he, his wife and children were very hopeful for the opportunity to leave Russia and were happy to accept the offer to go to England it was really their only chance of escape - however the offer was withdrawn by the British Government under pressure from George V, by the time the news of the withdrawel of the offer reached the British Ambassador in Petrograd, Kerensky had been forced to offer guarantees to the Soviet that the family wouldn't be allowed to leave Russia, with that their last chance of escape was truly gone. I don't doubt the families love for Russia, but had the opportunity presented itself - that the whole family could leave together - historical facts suggest they would have left. Throughout their exile in Tobolsk and then in Ekaterinburg they appeared to remain hopeful of liberation and escape even if that meant leaving Russia.

[nena]

Yes, they were victims of Bolshevik repression. You are right. And thank you for presenting some facts about IF during 1917.

But, keep in minds sometimes we can't depend only to facts!  Firstly, Alexandra F. refused from Germans who wanted to rescue them.

Of course they sometimes wanted to escape. Yes, situation was hard. But after long time living in Russia, IF still wanted to stay in Russia -- as head Family in Russian,a s symbol of country. Now we can say it is ethics, honour adorability and love. And many miracles what happened during these 90 years.

And that Church respects, and knew Revolution didn't bring anything good. 

And I think rehabilitation is just formal thing that they had before to do.
Here are several threads about IF's rescuing, and believe me, I want if they escaped. Murder of 11 people is something....Sad.

And I do believe they are Saints.


Sincerly,
Nena.

[Felicia]

I'm an Orthodox but I'm not very religious and the religion interests me from hystorical point of view. 
I think that they are saints, but I don't pray to them, because of the reason in the sentence before.

[Multiverse]

I hope this is the proper thread for this.

Wouldn't today (January 6 Gregorian Calendar) be Christmas Day in The Russian Orthodox Church?

My understanding is that The Russian Orthodox Church still uses the "old style" Julian Calendar which is off from the "new style" Gregorian Calendar by about 2 weeks, and certainly in Nicholas II's time they were on The old Julian Calendar. I had always heard that because of this The Russian Orthodox Church celebrates Christmas when those on The Gregorian Calendar are on January 6. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I always heard and read.

If that is true then I guess today is when The Imperial Family would have celebrated Christmas.

So Merry Christmas to them and to all of you.