Author Topic: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List  (Read 266142 times)

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Vanya Ivanova

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #420 on: May 01, 2012, 04:04:15 AM »

Thanks for that, I have read some things that suggest Jemmy may have survived being killed with the IF and was perhaps killed by the 'White' Investigators as late as 1919 based on the remarkable state of preservation that Jemmy's body was in.

I really don't know what to think of this. Its a sad story and this makes it seem even more so.

Offline Sunny

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #421 on: May 01, 2012, 06:03:07 AM »

Thanks for that, I have read some things that suggest Jemmy may have survived being killed with the IF and was perhaps killed by the 'White' Investigators as late as 1919 based on the remarkable state of preservation that Jemmy's body was in.


Oh, well,as far as i know this could be possibile.I had heard of the possibility that Jemmy was alive when Yurovskij brought the corpses in the forest anddecided to follow her masters till the end and then died later on. I have had some dogs, and know it's pretty common that they do not abandon their master even if he's dead - some dogs even let themselves die of starvation or depression for the sorrow of having lost their master.
But it's also pretty likely that jemmy simply died in Anastasia's arms and was brought to the mineshaft with the corpses. Probably when the Bolsheviks made abonfire of the clothes & personal belongings, Jemmy was just left there, and maybe that was a drier place,which made possible that the poor dog corpse did not decompose soon.
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Offline Rodney_G.

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #422 on: May 01, 2012, 03:24:27 PM »
Other than document the state of his body with photos and an examination, I think they likely gave him a suitable pet burial.

I think the same. Gibbes, Gilliard and Kobylinskij recognized her even after months due to the color of her hairs (black and tan) and her size - she was said to be the tiniest King Charles ever, LOL
(I wrote "her" because it seems to me it was a female, also Gibbes said "she")


I had my doubts about Jemmy's gender even as I was writing about her/him. I went with 'him' primarily because the name seemed more male than female (Jimmy?, )but also because that would mean all OTMAA's dogs were female, presuming we're agreed on the gender of Joy and Ortipo as females. If this is the case, was there some reason for their preference for female pets? Just wondering.
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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #423 on: May 01, 2012, 04:01:19 PM »
One guess, Rodney might be that male dogs were for hunting. Also, female pets would  be more "chaste" perhaps ?
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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #424 on: May 01, 2012, 04:38:15 PM »
At first I thought it might have been a matter simply of female pets for girls, but Alexei  had his Joy. Also, I don't know that the pet owners (mistresses?) necessarily had any choice , since their pets were usually gifts I believe.

As for which gender would be more troublesome because of their sex in prime mating time, both would be pretty much out of control in my opinion.
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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #425 on: May 01, 2012, 05:51:32 PM »
That  would be the idea, Rodney,  keeping the sexes apart would  prevent  the natural process. These pets would have been just as pampered and secluded as the family itself, so  prudery of the era would have  been the rule, at least in this court.
 I do not know, but my guess would be that there no neutering campaigns back the, so the only was to control the  pet population was to keep them apart.
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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #426 on: May 02, 2012, 04:16:54 AM »
Just to say, i've read (maybe in the suitable thread?) that ortipo had puppies once. If it's true and who's the "father" i don't know.
But about Jemmy, I wrote "her" because Wilton use the feminine for this dog in "The last days of the Romanovs".

The corpse of little Jemmy was found above a heap of cinders all that remained of the family that had loved her and shared with her their meagre fare. (pag. 317)

So i assumed that Wilton, since he worked with Sokolov, Gibbes and Gilliard, knew it was a female from the tutors... just to note it wasnot my guessing.
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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #427 on: May 02, 2012, 07:32:55 AM »
Yes, Ortipo had puppies. Tatiana writes about it in a letter to her father on 17 September 1915.

Joy was male. I don't remember offhand my source for confirming that, but I can look into it again if you like.

I made the same guess regarding Jemmy's gender as Sunny did, based on Wilton. I know it's been discussed somewhere on the forum but so far I haven't been able to find the old thread. Anastasia mentions Jemmy in a letter of 24 April/7 May 1918, but doesn't use he/she. Alexandra also mentions Jemmy in a letter of 8/21 December 1917, but whether she called the dog he/she depends on which source you consult. English sources (Vyrubova and Lifelong Passion) use "he" while the Russian text in Pisma Tsarskoi Semi iz Zatocheniia uses "she." Is it known whether Alexandra wrote to Vyrubova in Russian or English?
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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #428 on: May 02, 2012, 12:52:41 PM »

I made the same guess regarding Jemmy's gender as Sunny did, based on Wilton. I know it's been discussed somewhere on the forum but so far I haven't been able to find the old thread. Anastasia mentions Jemmy in a letter of 24 April/7 May 1918, but doesn't use he/she. Alexandra also mentions Jemmy in a letter of 8/21 December 1917, but whether she called the dog he/she depends on which source you consult. English sources (Vyrubova and Lifelong Passion) use "he" while the Russian text in Pisma Tsarskoi Semi iz Zatocheniia uses "she." Is it known whether Alexandra wrote to Vyrubova in Russian or English?

Empress Alexandra Feodorovna wrote to A. A. Vyrubova in Russian or English, or a combination of both in one letter, and sometimes tossed in a phrase or two in French.

When writing of Jimmy in Russian, the Empress usually employed feminine forms.
Thus, in her letter of December 8, 1917, to A. A. Vyrubova (mentioned above), she wrote:
"Ваша Jimmie лежитъ рядомъ пока ея хозяйка на роялѣ играетъ."
"Your [fem.] Jimmie is lying nearby while her mistress [G. D. Anastasia] plays the piano."

However:
Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna herself wrote of her dog as if it were male:
"Джими здоровъ и веселъ."
"Jimmy is well [masc.] and in good spirits [masc.].

Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna also used masculine forms when referring to Jimmy:
"Джими здороъ и довольно рамолен."
"Jimmy is well [masc.] and rather ga-ga [masc.]."

When using the feminine forms, the Empress may have been influenced by the grammatical gender of the word "dog" in Russian, which is feminine: собака, or, in this case, the diminutive, which is still feminine: собачка.

(Or possibly the Grand Duchesses were influenced by the name "Jimmy" to use masculine forms?...)

PS: Jimmy is sometimes referred to as Jemmy, too.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 12:57:37 PM by Inok Nikolai »
инок Николай

Offline Sunny

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #429 on: May 03, 2012, 01:03:30 AM »
Thanks Inok Nikolai!

I found the russian original of the famous letter from AN to MN on 7th May 1918 (maybe here on the AP site?) and AN referred to Jemmy as "he" (in Russian, on) so i'm still confused.
Sarah, i can found the old thread neither.
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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #430 on: May 03, 2012, 01:08:38 AM »
I've mostly seen the name "Jemmy " used. I think people believe that Jemmy  is  a typo
and so use "Jimmy" instead.   It's funny Jemmy has come up because
I recently saw her in a couple of captivity photos, where I had not noticed her before .
Indeed the best photo of Jemmy's face is the photo of the children resting when
Alexis is sitting with Olga, Anastasia and TN. She's stretched across Anastasia's lap.

]

 But Jemmy is also in the  famous photo of OTMA resting in the garden .
She's turned away from us, but towards her mistress and one can see the "tan" of
 her colouring , which really was a dark mahogany brown.


In two other photos her little figured showed up .
She's  hard  to see in the first( this file doesn't look as good as the photo )
 and I don't think I would have noticed her if  she wasn't so clear in the 2nd photo


Between TN and Anastasia)


the first photo  they are digging and in the  2nd, watering . I use to think Jemmy was a Pekingese, she was so small...but I have recently seen
photos of King Charles spaniels  from the family's time and she looked just like them.

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #431 on: May 03, 2012, 07:27:04 AM »
I've mostly seen the name "Jemmy " used. I think people believe that Jemmy  is  a typo
and so use "Jimmy" instead.   It's funny Jemmy has come up because
I recently saw her in a couple of captivity photos, where I had not noticed her before .

I had never seen her in them! WOW! You're amazing, Bless *__* thanks so much!!

I use to think Jemmy was a Pekingese, she was so small...but I have recently seen
photos of King Charles spaniels  from the family's time and she looked just like them.

I've recently found out in abook about dogs, that King Charles in the XIX-early XX century were smaller than the ones we see nowadays. Moreover, black&tan is a color which it seems it doesn't exist for Pekingese or Japanese Chin; neither cavalier King could be black&tan, just King Charles :)
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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #432 on: May 04, 2012, 03:15:45 AM »
Quote
....Moreover, black&tan is a color which it seems it doesn't exist for Pekingese or Japanese Chin; neither cavalier King could be black&tan, just King Charles
Amazing. I didn't know that

Here's a illustration of the King Charles near the family's time to show the colouring.
We think she was all black because the dark brown reads that way in black and white photos...but she was quite colorful


Ok I couldn't resist


  Imp and Jemmy 1917


 

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Vanya Ivanova

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #433 on: May 04, 2012, 05:49:56 AM »

Thanks so much for posting those photos BlessOTMA. I could only ever find the one of Jemmy on Gd Anastasia's lap. As Sunny had stated Jemmy was particularly small these new photos really give a sense of scale, Jemmy was not much bigger than a cat! I never realised how small King Charles Spaniels are even now, I always thought they were just a bit smaller than Springer Spaniels like Joy.

Your picture of the two of them together is lovely, I also recently saw a picture you posted of GD Olga learning to shoot with her father in the background, again really lovely and the comments you made on that thread about GD Olga's relationship with her father I thought were really insightful.

I'd also always thought people mistook Jemmy as a 'typo' for 'Jimmy' and that the dog was actually a 'she'.

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Re: Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« Reply #434 on: May 04, 2012, 08:47:24 AM »
Vanya Ivanova , thank you for your comments! If one accepts the body found at the four brothers was Jemmy, the h/she part is easier because that body was female. Yes it was in relatively good shape for the length of time between July 17th 1918 and its recovery, but how many black and tan King Charles were in the area so one could be "planted" as has been suggested in the past. Both tutors recognized poor Jemmy's body and one can only imagine the effect on them when seeing it.
Quote
I always thought they were just a bit smaller than Springer Spaniels like Joy.
That's what I always thought too, and so couldn't believe she was any kind of spaniel. But it really pays to look at  photos of a dog breed taken in the time one is concerned with ... significant  breed change can happen in 100 years. And as Sunny has pointed out, Jemmy was small for even her time!

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