Author Topic: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918  (Read 56267 times)

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Offline Erichek

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2005, 12:40:47 PM »
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I think they did not know, but one would suppose they always lived with a sense of danger and peril at every point. They still had hope to the end, but maybe that was a brave front for when they thought about it, they must have realized it might be a dark future for them. But, though some of their relatives died, some of them escaped. They must have hoped for escape too. Apart from Nicholas, who was in the most danger, one wonders if the girls ever thought they woudn't get out of the situation alive. But, I think whatever their fate, they accepted it. Although it is true they wanted to get to a better point in their life.


I wonder if this is true.
Even today, when rereading FOTR, I was impressed by the chapters "A happy hour with the grandest people in the world" and "Goetterdaemmerung". I got to understand that:
- relations between the prisoners an their guards became less and less divined, the youngest three girls chatting to the soldiers as if they were their fathers' soldiers, like in the old days (did they differentiate?);
- some flirtations even sprung up;
- some soldiers felt more and more sorry for the ones they guarded;
- the prison regime was not as harsh as was earlier on  assumed;
- the girls mentioned finally emigrating to Great Brittain;
- the total surprise at Yurovsky's declaration.

It may as well be that the IF still assumed they were going to be shipped to Moscow, like they should have been in April of that same year. Such was known to them. They can have been thinking/hoping that the civil war made their transfer impossible at the time, but then later on they still would be moved to Moscow, and then abroad.
Had the IF been afraid and have haid premonitions about their gruesome fate, would they have felt at ease in making small-talk to their guards, have Yurovsky chat with Aleksej, note that Yurovsky seemed to do better than Avdayev, etc., etc.?

Just some thoughts...

Theories pointing the other way involve assumptions that Olga "knew" better what the circumstances were, which is yet to be proven, and Alexandra's ominous referrals to the end of live on earth and coping with the ' vale of tears'  for a glorious eternal life in heaven, which is something she has been known to focus on already in her early adult years (so nothing new there)....

Erichek

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #106 on: October 25, 2005, 10:19:47 AM »
Yes, we should always debate both sides of the story of things we don't know. I think ultimatly, we should make our stand on every issue our own. By following our own intuition, we should make our conclusions. But I like to here both sides, and others opinions. But learning what each other thinks, and reading biographies of differing viewpoints, you can inform your own viewpoint more. I thought your post, Erichek,was very thoughtful and enjoyed reading it.

I believe we will  never know for sure how much the IF knew of what their end would be, or what their relatives end had been.I think they may have sensed their doom, but then, Olga was very thoughtful, and Alexandra always expressed such sentiments.I think they did sense doom, to what degree, I don't know. But they did have cheerful moments. Also, they continued with their daily round of life, like they accepted the sitiuation as being temporary. They were shocked at the manner of their death, in the cellar,. They never expected to die that night, under those circumstances. One wonders if they even expected to die in such a brutal way.  :o I know they came to terms with everything, and if they had the time came to terms with what they realized would happen in the cellar. Olga and Alexandra crossed themselves, realizing that their lives were over. But at first they were surprised.

Offline Teddy

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #107 on: November 25, 2005, 03:09:22 PM »
If you are intrested in the Romanovs you always end with the brutal murders of the Romanovs.

Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, Alexei, Michael, Ella, Serge M., Konstantin K., Ioann K. and Igor K., Paul, George M., Dmitri K and Nicolai M.,

But what about Nicholas K, and his son Artemi. They were also killed I think. Or what about Daria von Leuchtenberg, she was also murdered by the Bolscheviks and how about Count Aleksei Alekseivich Belevsky-Zhukovsky? He was a son of the Grand Duke Alexei A.

Altough there is no direct proof of the murdering of Nicholas K. and his son Artemi, but you must consider that their deaths were strange. For sure, were Daria and Count Aleksei murdered by the Bolsheviks, although many years later..

What do you think?

And who have more information about the Count and Artemi?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #108 on: November 25, 2005, 06:04:21 PM »
I think the consensus wast that Nicholas K died a natural death and was actually feted by the local Bolsheviks upon his death.

As for his descendants, when Royalty did an article on his granddaughter, there was brief mention of his children. I have the article somewhere unless someone else remembers the details. I think one 'disappeared' at some point and the other died in combat?

Daria's fate was discussed on another thread. Which one, memory again fails me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #109 on: November 26, 2005, 11:59:23 AM »
Prince Artemi Iskander died during the Civil War. I know of no evidence that he was killed by the Bolsheviks in the sense that his cousin Nicholas II was.

Let's try a list:

1. HIM Emperor Nicholas II
2. HIM Empress Alexandra Feodorovna
3. HIH Tsesarevich Alexei Nicholievich (presumed killed)
4. HIH Grand Duchess Olga Nicholievna
5. HIH Grand Duchess Tatiana N.
6. HIH Grand Duchess Marie N. (presumed killed)
7. HIH Grand Duchess Anastasia N.

The above were presumed murdered at the Ipatiev House, Ekaterinburg, Perm Government.

8. HIH Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich (titular Emperor Michael II, presumed killed)

The above was presumed murdered outside Perm.

9. HIH Grand Duke Serge Michaelovich
10. HIH Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna (sister of Empress)
11. HIH Prince Ivan Constantinovich
12. HIH Prince Igor Constantinovich
13. HIH Prince Constantine Constantinovich
14. HSH Prince Vladimir Paley (son of Grand Duke Paul A, and a morganaut and poet)

The above were presumed murdered outside Alapaevsk, Perm Government

15. HIH Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich
16. HIH Grand Duke Nicholas Michaelovich
17. HIH Grand Duke George Michaelovich
18. HIH Grand Duke Dimitry Constantinovich

The above were presumed murdered at the Fortress of Peter and Paul, Petrograd, St. Petersburg Government.

Presumably, 18 is the number.

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #110 on: November 27, 2005, 06:07:08 AM »
Hey, who was Daria von Leuchtenberg??  :)
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Offline leanora

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #111 on: November 27, 2005, 12:42:44 PM »
Considering the book of Greg K. and Penny W '"the fate of the Romanovs" it's said:

"When Nicholad II abdicated the Russian Throne on March 15, 1917, the 304-year-old Romanov Dynasty ended. On that cold winter day, 52 members of the imperial house were living in the empire. Over the following two years, 17 were murdered while 35 managed to escape the Revolution"

Is it 17 or 18?

Offline Teddy

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #112 on: November 27, 2005, 02:01:54 PM »
Considering the book: The Romanovs the way it was were in the Court Journal of 1917, 65 Members of the Imperial Family?

Who are those 65?

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #113 on: November 27, 2005, 03:31:20 PM »
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Considering the book of Greg K. and Penny W '"the fate of the Romanovs" it's said:

"When Nicholad II abdicated the Russian Throne on March 15, 1917, the 304-year-old Romanov Dynasty ended. On that cold winter day, 52 members of the imperial house were living in the empire. Over the following two years, 17 were murdered while 35 managed to escape the Revolution"

Is it 17 or 18?


17 Dynasts. 18 Romanovs murdered during the Revolution and Civil War. The difference is Prince Vladimir Paley. He was not a dynast but was nonetheless murdered along with Ella, Serge M, the Constaninovichi princes, and their retainers at Alapaevsk.

I also didn't include Daria or Alexei BZ who were Romanov descendants. Both were murdered under Stalin.

I also did not include Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, who died in Switzerland who I believe may have been the victim of foul play. Or George Brasov, whose auto accident death at age 21 I have also wondered about. Considering the trouble and expense that Stalin went into with The Trust, I would not be surprised if Papa Joe had them killed.

So the totals could be:

Romanovs murdered during R/CW - 18
Romanov descendents murdered by Stalin - 2
Romanov males possibly murdered by Stalin - 2

Total Potential Kills - 22

David_Pritchard

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #114 on: November 27, 2005, 03:47:35 PM »
As far as I can tell two collateral members of the Imperial House were killed in 1919 during the civil war:

Prince Atrem Nikolaievich Iskander

Duke Andrei Georgievich Leuchtenburg

One collateral member of the Imperial House was killed in the early 1930's by the Soviets:

Count Aleksei Alekseievich Belevsky-Zhukovsky

Offline Teddy

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #115 on: November 27, 2005, 03:55:10 PM »
Duke Andrei Georgievich Leuchtenburg? Tell me more, David. Why this name?

And Lisa, you makes a little bit mystery about Grand Duke Dmitri and Prince George Brassov.

I like that kind of mystery... ;D

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #116 on: November 27, 2005, 04:39:04 PM »
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Hey, who was Daria von Leuchtenberg??  :)


Some links:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1126454148;start=46#46

http://www.geocities.com/henrivanoene/genleuchtenberg.html


Other than here, the thread I link above is the only time she is mentioned at all on this forum.  :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by magpie »

David_Pritchard

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #117 on: November 27, 2005, 06:21:04 PM »
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Duke Andrei Georgievich Leuchtenburg? Tell me more, David. Why this name?

And Lisa, you makes a little bit mystery about Grand Duke Dmitri and Prince George Brassov.

I like that kind of mystery... ;D



Duke Andrei Georgievich von Leuchtenburg was born in Saint Petersburg on 9 July 1903 and he was killed in action at Narva, Estonia on 22/25 February 1919 while serving with the White Army forces of General Yudenich.  His great grandfather was Maximillian Joseph Eugen August Napoleon, Duke von Leuchtenberg who was granted the title of HIH Prince Romanovsky when he married HIH Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna of Russia. His great great grandfather was HIH Eugene Rose de Beauharnais, Prince of France, Viceroy of the Kingdom of Italy, Hereditary Grand Duke of Frankfurt, Duke von Leuchtenberg and Furst von Eichstädt.

David

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #118 on: December 27, 2005, 01:05:08 PM »
Just my humble opinion, but I think it's impossible that they did not figure out their fate (i.e. the execution).  The atmosphere they were in, the constant imprisonment, the vicious surveillance.  They would have realized it could not go on forever like that and something would have to be done with them.  They would have felt something building, something looming on the horizon based on the general atmosphere in the house.  Furthermore, it had been more than a year and there was no word of any foreign country demanding their release which means it would never have happened barring some extreme circumstances.  

I do, however, think that if the other Romanovs (Ella, Michael, etc.) had been executed before them by weeks or a month than the news would have leaked out and it would have benefited their cause.  Foreign countries would have lept into action and demanded the release of the Imperial Family and possible threatened military actions against the Reds.  
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

calebGmoney

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Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
« Reply #119 on: December 28, 2005, 07:41:46 PM »
They were not informed that family members and such were dieing as you can see in their diaries. In fact, when Alexei's nanny had been taken away and shot, they did not why he had not returned.