Author Topic: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?  (Read 33507 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Baby_Tsarevich

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2005, 11:21:11 PM »
Yep there was no Tsar when Alexei died!

etonexile

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2005, 04:16:14 AM »
Erm...I'm pretty sure that Alexei was Czar the moment his father abdicated for himself....he didn't have the right to abdicate for his heir....and when Czar Alexei Nicholaievich was murdered in 1918...in that moment....the next legitimate,male relation should have been considered as heir and Czar....

etonexile

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2005, 04:18:36 AM »
I rather wish we had an expert on Orthadox Russian succession....I'm just going with what I understand....but perhaps it's too much British Royal succession....

RissiaSunbeam1918

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2005, 09:12:53 AM »
Well he might have not really been able to abdicate for Alexei, but he DID, and people seemed to agree that he was too young to get taken away from the family.

(Could they have let a twelve/thirteen year old be Tsar...I wish we had an expert here too etonexile  ;) )

Misha was Tsar AFTER Alexei, so Nicholas abdicating for him must have worked, but then Misha abdicated so there wasn't a Tsar at ALL when he died...erm...I think.


etonexile

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2005, 09:24:19 AM »
Yes...we need that expert...but I'm still thinking that illegally abdicating for someone else is...well...erm...illegal.... ???

etonexile

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2005, 09:26:30 AM »
Mods...your thoughts?

RissiaSunbeam1918

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2005, 09:33:09 AM »
Oh, ya, I'm a genuis....Mods? We need your help a little bit.....


Christian_II

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2005, 07:53:58 AM »
Nicholas could only abdicate for himself not Alexei, legally Alexei was in fact H.I.M. Alexei II from the moment Nicholas abdicate not Misha, Misha was not The Czarewich, the Duma was to accept Alexei for Czar, not Misha, and I think the people too.

etonexile

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2005, 09:04:16 AM »
Was the acceptance of the Duma necessary...?Didn't the title pass automatically from Czar to heir....?

Offline clockworkgirl21

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2667
    • View Profile
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2005, 02:32:14 PM »
Wait...I know this is off the subject a little, but Aleksey was tzar for two hours, and was having a French lesson? A two hour French lesson? I don't mean to be dumb, but that's weird.

RissiaSunbeam1918

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2005, 03:43:03 PM »
Well,  he was in a french lesson when he was decided to be Tsar...I do not know if he was there the whole time. But you never know. He was ill a lot. Maybe it was a super long lesson to make up for lost times? Just a guess. Anyone know for sure?

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2005, 02:24:36 PM »
The correct answer to this question is very complex.

Why?

There were laws which allowed or didn't allow Nicholas II to abdicate in 1917.  And, there is debate as to if Nicholas II could abdicate.

There were laws which allowed sucession, those who followed with the right to rule Russia after Nicholas II.

To add to this mix,  it is believed that Nicholas II abdicated twice.

The first abdication, which was destroyed, was said to have stated that Nicholas II had abdicated in favor of his son Alexei.

Let me note here that earlier documents had been signed and agreed upon that Nicholas II's sucessor was Alexei and his Regent was to be Nicholas II's brother, GD Michael.

If this first abdication is accepted as the one and only abdication then Alexei did become Tsar of Russia in 1917 and since he was under age, GD Michael became Regent.

If the first abdication is accepted then Nicholas II lost all rights and power as Tsar and everything in Russia fell under Regent Michael.  And,  Nicholas II held no power and henceforth would need to gain farther permission of official business from Regent Michael.

Nicholas II changed his mind and the first abdication was destroyed.  This was not legal and so is debated.  However, the abdication no longer existed and was physically gone.

Nicholas II drafted and then signed what is known as the second abdication.  In this he by passed Alexei and gave the crown to his brother GD Michael.

The reason Nicholas II gave  for by passing Alexei was not one that was acceptable and would prove as another debating point for those who believed Alexei was Tsar.

If the second abdication is legal, and the first abdication was not, then Alexei never was Tsar of Russia.

GD Michael became Tsar of Russia if the second abdication is legal.  And, it appears that this was the accepted abdication by all those concern, including the Duma and GD Michael who took up the reins of Tsar.

Therefore, if the second abdication was accepted then Alexei was never Tsar.

If the first abdication was the one that was legal and binding, and the second abdication was not legal, then Alexei was Tsar from March 1917 with GD Michael serving as his Regent, until he came of age, which I think was 16.  So if the first abdication was the legal document, when Alexei died, he was the uncrown Tsar of Russia.

Confused?

I am not very knowledgeable on this subject but I'll try to answer any questions that I can.

Hopefully, other posters will help explain what I can't.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

etonexile

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2005, 08:57:31 AM »
It would seem that either abdication paper was valid as far as the removal of NA...once you step down...you've stepped down...and your legal heir is your legal heir...until he in turn should choose to abdicate...AN was Czar after his father...he could just as easily have been a baby....but the legal inheritance would have been his....He would have had a regent of course...and likely a ruling council until he reached adulthood...but AN was Czar until one dark night in a cellar.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2005, 10:33:26 AM »
Like I said, there are posters who have strong opinions as to which abdication was legal.

And, remember, there are some who think that it was illegal for Nicholas II to have abdicated in the first place and if this is true, then Nicholas II was Tsar until the day he was murdered.  This is  one of the reasons why many books called Nicholas II "The Last Tsar".

However long Tsarvich Alexei was Tsar, a few hours due to the first abdication,  or a little more than a year [March 1917 to July 1918] due to the second abdication, he never was able to rule Russia because of the counter revolutionariies known as Bolsheviks who was ruled by the  dictator Lenin.

If the Russian laws permitted Nicholas II to abdicate, I tend to agree that once the ink was wet on the first abdication,  Tsarvich Alexei became the uncrown Tsar and died as the last Tsar "in" Russia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

etonexile

  • Guest
Re: Was Aleksey Ever Tzar?
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2005, 05:20:21 PM »
...Agreement with AGRBear...goes off to buy lottery ticket...you know it's all just in fun... :-*

Dang...I'm just going by my knowledge of British tradition...I wish we had an expert on Russian Imperial succession or some suggestions on places to check....

I should try Google I'm thinking....