Author Topic: No Stalin, no Hitler?  (Read 107274 times)

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Robert_Hall

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #255 on: February 12, 2009, 12:35:42 PM »
I would not deny that the collapse of the USSR and the ensuing chaos distressed many, if not most citizens at that time.  I did not start visiting Russia until 2005, but I have a friend who was there at that time, doing business and he described it as "wild west". Also, my closest friend in Russia was in the Red Army then, so I do have some first hand accounts. It is no different than anyplace  else, when the system you believe in and rely upon  disappears.
 However, this thread is supposed to be about Hitler and Stalin. All that happened long after they both had left the stage.

Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #256 on: February 12, 2009, 02:00:21 PM »
Well, getting back to Hitler and Stalin, I just picked up an interesting book, Totalitarian Art in the Soviet Union, the Third Reich, Fascist Italy and the People's Republic of China by Igor Golomstock. It begins with a quote from Werner Haftmann:

"Totalitarianism is the concept which subsumes three such seemingly different movements as the Leninist-Stalinist stage of Bolshevism, Mussolini's Fascism, and Hitler's National Socialism. The deepest and most striking expression of the inner affinity of these three movements, all of which were directed against human freedom, is that they produced identical aesthetic conceptions and the same brand of official art."

It's true. This book is accompanied by plentiful color reproductions of Stalinist and Nazi works of art (so-called), often juxtaposed so that one sees how incredibly similar in style, composition, and theme these works really were. I only wish I had a scanner so that I could reproduce some of these pictures here - however, maybe I can find them on the Internet. Give me some time.

P.S. Well, there seem to be many websites devoted to this subject. Here is a sample of one, an art history course slide show from Northwestern University that demonstrates the striking similarities between artistic renderings of Der Fuhrer, Lenin, Stalin, and Il Duce.

http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/art-history/werckmeister/May_13_1999/index.html
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 02:25:55 PM by Elisabeth »

Robert_Hall

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #257 on: February 12, 2009, 02:50:31 PM »
Quite interesting, Elisabeth. I hope you found the book at a good price, as it is not cheap. I have a copy coming from Australia.
 I have seen exhibitions of  Soviet art at Somerset House, in London. I tried to collect this stuff a while ago, but it just became too costly.  On the other hand, my partner is in the antiques business and has a huge demand for Fascist art from Italy. Also china from Mao's era. I would agree they are all very stylised, but quite dis-similiar except, perhaps in function.  Soviet art, as I see it, was more functional whereas Nazi art [rare and costly to acquire] was pure propaganda. I think art from Italy at that time was, as it is now, more about style.  All 3, of course were using the trend at the time, as was everyone else- Art Deco. The stuff I see from China though, is personality cult mixed with function. Mao tea pots ? Although I tend to collect porcelain, one can compare posters from that era, from each  European country as well as the USA and see the artistic trend.

Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #258 on: February 12, 2009, 03:11:10 PM »
Quite interesting, Elisabeth. I hope you found the book at a good price, as it is not cheap. I have a copy coming from Australia.
 I have seen exhibitions of  Soviet art at Somerset House, in London. I tried to collect this stuff a while ago, but it just became too costly.  On the other hand, my partner is in the antiques business and has a huge demand for Fascist art from Italy. Also china from Mao's era. I would agree they are all very stylised, but quite dis-similiar except, perhaps in function.  Soviet art, as I see it, was more functional whereas Nazi art [rare and costly to acquire] was pure propaganda. I think art from Italy at that time was, as it is now, more about style.  All 3, of course were using the trend at the time, as was everyone else- Art Deco. The stuff I see from China though, is personality cult mixed with function. Mao tea pots ? Although I tend to collect porcelain, one can compare posters from that era, from each  European country as well as the USA and see the artistic trend.

You shed a very interesting light on the collectibility of these art pieces. I only know a little about Russian and Soviet art; apparently not only the official artists of the Soviet regime but also all the socialist realist painters of the Stalinist period in general are in huge demand right now, or at least they were up until recently, before the global economic crisis. (As, for that matter, were the postmodernist artists who have so successfully satirized socialist realism in the last few decades.)

I disagree that Soviet art of the Stalinist era was "more functional" compared to Nazi art, which you say was "pure propaganda." I think both were pure propaganda. Gosh darn it, if I just had a scanner I could show you what I'm talking about. There's an absolutely stunning example given on page 256 of Golomstock's book - the Soviet Motovilov's statue of "The Stonebreaker" side by side with the Nazi Koelle's statue of - yeah, you guessed it - "The Stonebreaker." They are virtually identical. Half-naked studs with big muscles.  Even in the same pose. I can't even imagine what a serious art collector would pay to have both of these statues in his possession. Probably a cool million dollars, don't you think? For bad art. But historically "important." It's such a laugh.
 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 03:33:43 PM by Elisabeth »

Robert_Hall

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #259 on: February 12, 2009, 03:58:55 PM »
My scanner is dead as well, so I do not fret about it. The book is on it's way to me.
  Now, Soviet art, and I am talking about the  best, [former] Imperial Porcelain factories products, were not really intended for the masses.  The works were given to foreign dignitaries and Party elite. Naturally there were tonnes of cheap statues and busts, but that stuff was usually just for offices, like here,  where every government office has a picture of the president, governor, et al. They were also given as awards to workers [big thrill, I am sure they would have preferred a monetary bonus]
 In Nazi Germany, they wanted this stuff in every household.
 As I mentioned before, that same statue you mention can be found in FDR's WPA programme it is all style, isn't it? Different messsages but using the artistic trend of the era. You can see the very same trend in post-war Argentina with the Evita cult.
 Personally, I like the art deco movement.  There is a commonality in design, but a lot of differences in the message.
 I once had a wonderful statue of Hitler,  really angular cut, in a "Caesar" type pose.  I will admit I was not proud to display it, [actually, I did not, it was kept in a cabinet until we sold it] but the message it sent was a lot different than the "common good" of the  Stalinist era in art.
 Also, the Hitler regime paid for real design talent. Stalin used the resources at hand. Which, of course was considerable.

Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #260 on: February 13, 2009, 10:15:16 AM »
As I mentioned before, that same statue you mention can be found in FDR's WPA programme it is all style, isn't it? Different messsages but using the artistic trend of the era. You can see the very same trend in post-war Argentina with the Evita cult.
 Personally, I like the art deco movement.  There is a commonality in design, but a lot of differences in the message.
 I once had a wonderful statue of Hitler,  really angular cut, in a "Caesar" type pose.  I will admit I was not proud to display it, [actually, I did not, it was kept in a cabinet until we sold it] but the message it sent was a lot different than the "common good" of the  Stalinist era in art.
 Also, the Hitler regime paid for real design talent. Stalin used the resources at hand. Which, of course was considerable.

Robert, unlike you, I am not at all an expert on art, only an interested dilettante. With my overall ignorance understood - I do agree that American art showed a lot of the same stylistic "symptoms" as continental art, including Nazi and Italian Fascist, as well as Soviet art during the pre-World War II era. After all, wasn't the great Mexican communist artist Diego Rivera recruited by the American government - as well as a major automobile manufacturer in Detroit? - for one or more mural projects back during the Great Depression? (It's strange, Rivera's art today seems quite dead, historical artifacts at best, whereas his wife Frieda Kahlo's art remains as vibrant and moving as it was the day it was created.)

That said, it does seem to me that this Socialist Realist or I would even venture to say "imperialist" style prevailed far longer in Soviet (and Chinese) art than it did elsewhere on the globe. Even "official" American art gave way to a new and more updated style after World War II. Whereas in the Soviet Union the official art seems to have been pretty much unvarying, even stagnant in nature after around 1930. Which is why even to this day it provides such rich material for satirists.

I like Art Deco, too, very much. Although one of my favorite German artists of the twentieth century can hardly be described as a promoter of Art Decoism - I am speaking of Max Ernst. As I know you know, Robert (but maybe other people here don't) Ernst was a founder of the Dada and Surrealist movements, arrested a few times under the Nazis and forced to emigrate to the United States, where he continued his successful career, apparently quite unperturbed.  His was an example of the "degenerate" art so despised and calumniated by Hitler (which speaks only volumes in Ernst's favor, as far as I can see).

Robert, do you remember the officially designated "degenerate" German artist who was forbidden to paint under the Nazis, to the extent that the secret police would periodically turn up at this poor man's apartment, sniffing around for the smell of paint or turpentine? I can't remember the name of this artist, and it's driving me crazy!


Robert_Hall

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #261 on: February 13, 2009, 12:08:04 PM »
There were so many...you can check google under "degerate art in Nazi Germany, that  has seral listed.

Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #262 on: February 13, 2009, 03:20:17 PM »
My husband has just reminded me that it was Emil Nolde (1867-1956). There is an entry for him in Wikipedia, although it leaves out most of the colorful bits of his life, such as the fact that he initially supported Hitler and apparently only became disgusted with the Nazi movement when some of his paintings were selected for the infamous Nazi exhibit of "degenerate" modern art, after which of course he experienced much persecution by the state (as I described above, the secret police actually used to inspect his home to make sure he wasn't painting - it was during these years that he began producing miniature paintings, easily hidden away).

Here is the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Nolde

There's also an impressive array of reproductions of Nolde's art available on the Internet if you just Google images "Nolde." Obviously this artist could never have been in line with officially approved Nazi art. I rather like his work.

Zvezda

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #263 on: February 14, 2009, 02:35:05 PM »
Quote
While the long-standing ethnic hatred was suppressed under Soviet rule (troublemakers were shot or exiled of course), it was obviously still there. 

There was no enmity between nations under socialism. Foreigners in Russia were not savagely attacked by neo-Nazi hooligans. There existed genuine friendship among all nations.

Quote
Since the the Nagorno-Karabakh War started in Feb. 1988 it's nonsense to blame it on economic problems from 1989-91.
Although there was violence between the two communities in 1988, the situation was not a full-scale war. By 1992 sporadic clashes had developed into full-scale conflict. Groups of people do not suddenly start killing each other but are motivated by economic factors.

Quote
The USSR self-destructed, perhaps w/ a little help from the military spending forced upon it by Reagan's strong stand against Soviet tyranny.  If it wasn't Yetsin someone else would have come along.
The USSR did not "self-destruct" but was dissolved illegally by Yeltsin and his cronies. It was the will of the people to preserve the country's progressive economic and social system as the referendum of March 1991 demonstrated. The claim that Reagan's catastrophic economic policies even remotely played a role in the political developments of the USSR is baseless.
Quote
It's understandable long-suppressed people may have trouble handling freedom at first
To attribute a deadly war to your crazy interpretation of "freedom" is rather offensive.

Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #264 on: February 15, 2009, 10:55:43 AM »
Zvezda, I'm only responding to your last post in order to rejuvenate this thread - which is probably a futile effort, all things considered. In general, I don't feel it's constructive to argue with Russian nationalists; for one thing, nationalists are such ideologues that you can predict all their arguments before they even make them.

Thus, I could respond to your post about how under the Soviets "there existed genuine friendship among all nations," by quite baldly stating that the United States and the nations of Western Europe could hardly be described as "friendly" in their attitude towards the Soviet Union - it was called the Cold War for a reason, mind you. Or, perhaps you are arguing that friendship among nationalities within the Soviet empire remained benign - But that hardly seems logical, since as we all know Stalin deported entire populations of ethnic and class minorities both before, during, and after World War II. These people were deprived of their homelands and sent off by cattle cars to unknown, often uninhabitable regions, where many of them perished for lack of adequate food and shelter. As a result, it's highly doubtful that these particular nationalities today feel anything more than total disdain for the former Soviet empire and Russians in general. Because any semblance of Soviet "friendship" between nationalities in the USSR was only established by means of force and ethnic (or class) cleansing.

But of course you will respond that these particular ethnic groups and classes (like the kulaks and other better-off peasants in the Ukraine) represented some very real threat against the Soviet state and therefore deserved to be treated like animals. But if you were to make such an argument, you would be completely contradicting yourself, because you would then be admitting that serious ethnic (and class) conflict existed within the Soviet Union even prior to the first deportations. In other words, your entire argument about the so-called friendly relations between Soviet nationalities rests on a false premise.

As for the Soviet Union self-destructing, quite obviously it did, without the need for any secret "conspiracies" against it (whether the secret conspiracists were Reagan or Yeltsin, the theory that some "evil" force destroyed the USSR is simply nonsense). As previously stated (how many times?) the entire Soviet economy had tanked by the summer of 1991. It had been tanking for decades, according to the regime's own researchers. Just one example: the Soviet Union had no native computer industry to speak of. It had earned no share in the expanding international economic market of information technology. When it came to globalization, the dear old USSR looked to be a complete and utter failure. There's no way that it could have competed with other first world nations in the remaining decade of the 20th century, much less the 21st century, unless some radical changes were made. Gorbachev understood this, as did Yeltsin.

One final thought - I'm sure economic conditions affect ethnic relations, even are at the heart of ethnic and religious conflicts - however, they cannot be considered the only cause for these conflicts. There are usually serious, historically long-standing ethnic and religious hatreds existing between such groups who suddenly (as if without warning) start attacking each other. You can argue that the Soviet empire put a lid on simmering ethnic conflicts (usually, probably always, at the point of a bayonet). You have a good argument there. What you cannot really argue is that those ethnic conflicts ever entirely went away. They didn't, and as a result they boiled over once the Soviet Union (and its secret police) disintegrated.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 11:11:15 AM by Elisabeth »

Silja

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #265 on: February 15, 2009, 11:33:10 AM »


One final thought - I'm sure economic conditions affect ethnic relations, even are at the heart of ethnic and religious conflicts - however, they cannot be considered the only cause for these conflicts. There are usually serious, historically long-standing ethnic and religious hatreds existing between such groups who suddenly (as if without warning) start attacking each other.

For which the former Yugoslavia is of course the perfect example. Once Tito had died the artificially created and only superficially happy union of the southern slaves started to disintegrate until the final break up in the early 1990s.



Robert_Hall

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #266 on: February 15, 2009, 12:09:56 PM »
I have stepped aside until now, because I believe both Zvezda and Elisabeth make valid points. However, if I am not mistaken, by "nations" Zvezda is referring to the former SSRs. Although the Soviet Union did have not a few  friends in the larger world picture as well.  The ethnic tensions surfaced only after  the USSR broke apart. And the "foreigners" attacked by neo-nazi thugs are usually ethnic minorities from the territories, not tourists from the West. This is tragic, but what should the response be to the terrorists of the Moscow  bombings and the the school massacre? As Sija pointed out, the same thing happened when the former Yugoslavia broke up. This is what happens in any well-ordered society when law & order  are dismantled and replaced with chaos.
 We are not immune either, are we ? Even Sija's beautiful Germany had [and may still have] tensions between the former East and the relatively prosperous West.
 And in the USA- well, we have no room to brag.  Racism has led to riots and burning, McCarthyism led to witch hunts and we even started to collapse of the world economies, to a great extent.
 BUT, all this is off topic, isn't it?
 Both Stalin and Hitler had their adherents and admirers.  One simply cannot deny that.  Hitler's personality cult was probably stronger, until  war with Russia broke out. Then, Stalin came into his own, as I see it. Both made firm enforcement of law & order their first priority, and no doubt achieved it  through  similar mean, namely fear to no small extent. But  Stalin's Soviet Union lasted longer than Hitler's 3rd Reich But, their use of deportation was generated by very different reasons. Under Stalin, I do not think any particular race was considered "inferior" unlike Hitler's reasoning.
 There is more to say, but this is enough from me, for now.

Offline RichC

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #267 on: February 15, 2009, 02:19:48 PM »
Zvezda, I'm only responding to your last post in order to rejuvenate this thread - which is probably a futile effort, all things considered. In general, I don't feel it's constructive to argue with Russian nationalists; for one thing, nationalists are such ideologues that you can predict all their arguments before they even make them.

Thus, I could respond to your post about how under the Soviets "there existed genuine friendship among all nations," by quite baldly stating that the United States and the nations of Western Europe could hardly be described as "friendly" in their attitude towards the Soviet Union - it was called the Cold War for a reason, mind you. Or, perhaps you are arguing that friendship among nationalities within the Soviet empire remained benign - But that hardly seems logical, since as we all know Stalin deported entire populations of ethnic and class minorities both before, during, and after World War II. These people were deprived of their homelands and sent off by cattle cars to unknown, often uninhabitable regions, where many of them perished for lack of adequate food and shelter. As a result, it's highly doubtful that these particular nationalities today feel anything more than total disdain for the former Soviet empire and Russians in general. Because any semblance of Soviet "friendship" between nationalities in the USSR was only established by means of force and ethnic (or class) cleansing.

But of course you will respond that these particular ethnic groups and classes (like the kulaks and other better-off peasants in the Ukraine) represented some very real threat against the Soviet state and therefore deserved to be treated like animals. But if you were to make such an argument, you would be completely contradicting yourself, because you would then be admitting that serious ethnic (and class) conflict existed within the Soviet Union even prior to the first deportations. In other words, your entire argument about the so-called friendly relations between Soviet nationalities rests on a false premise.

As for the Soviet Union self-destructing, quite obviously it did, without the need for any secret "conspiracies" against it (whether the secret conspiracists were Reagan or Yeltsin, the theory that some "evil" force destroyed the USSR is simply nonsense). As previously stated (how many times?) the entire Soviet economy had tanked by the summer of 1991. It had been tanking for decades, according to the regime's own researchers. Just one example: the Soviet Union had no native computer industry to speak of. It had earned no share in the expanding international economic market of information technology. When it came to globalization, the dear old USSR looked to be a complete and utter failure. There's no way that it could have competed with other first world nations in the remaining decade of the 20th century, much less the 21st century, unless some radical changes were made. Gorbachev understood this, as did Yeltsin.

I just have to second Elisabeth's post that the Soviet Union destroyed itself from within.  There's so much evidence that this is the case, it's almost sinful that one has to say it.  But I think all we have here is another textbook case of ideological belief trumping reality.  Zvezhda believes what she believes and that's it.  It's like people who believe the earth is flat. 

Regarding the Soviet computer industry, I remember in the early 90's hearing a joke about "Soviet computer chips" -- the joke was that Soviet workers would create the BIGGEST and best computer chips the world had ever seen.  Just look at the mess they made with their "Central Planning" schemes going back to 1918.  Not only did this lead to massive waste (what's the name of that phony city in Siberia?) but the Soviet government ruined their nation's environment.  Check out what they did to the Aral Sea. 

Robert_Hall

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #268 on: February 15, 2009, 03:03:00 PM »
Rich C, you know how much I value your opinions, but  I think it is much like the pot calling the kettle beige to say that the Soviet Union ruined their environment.  As if they were the only ones to do so.  We have plenty of our own messes & disasters here to clean up, do we not? And, the past Bush administration was willing to going on doing it! [and I do not mean clean ups]
 But all this is  some way from Hitler & Stalin, isn't it? If it going to be a discussion  about capitalism versus socialism/communism, perhaps a new thread is in order ?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 09:58:22 PM by Alixz »

Zvezda

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #269 on: February 15, 2009, 06:35:03 PM »
Quote
As previously stated (how many times?) the entire Soviet economy had tanked by the summer of 1991.
The countries of the Soviet Union experienced serious economic problems only after the restoration of capitalism with "perestroika." It was in the period 1990-91 and the years after when the economy of Russia tanked.

In the first half of the 1980s, the annual rate of growth for industrial production in the USSR was higher than that of the United States. The economic problems of the USSR were less severe than those of western countries. Capitalism has been going experiencing a serious crisis since the mid-1970s.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 06:36:47 PM by Zvezda »