Author Topic: No Stalin, no Hitler?  (Read 92048 times)

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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #360 on: April 24, 2009, 09:36:28 AM »
. . . Stalin and Mao. The latter two political leaders . . . worked actively to safeguard world peace and rendered invaluable assistance to people struggling for freedom, democracy, and justice . . . .

Zvezda, your posts are riddled with so many distortions and outright lies that it is really difficult to know where to begin taking you apart.

Stalin working to safeguard world peace and assist those struggling for freedom?!?   The same Stalin who entered into the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with the secret protocol that facilitated the Soviet Union's takeover of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania and that ensured Soviet coooperation with Germany in invading and dismantling Poland?

You are either hopelessly ignorant of major events in European history, or you are comfortable with outright lying on this forum while wearing a smirk.  Or both.

Offline RichC

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #361 on: April 24, 2009, 12:51:06 PM »
Some factors of the tragic events of 1937-38 in Russia are worth discussing.

Oleg Khlyevnyuk argues that the the government considered repression as its main method of struggle with a potential fifth column. The basis for repression iincluded participation in the civil war on the side of Russia's enemies, membership in opposition groups, previous convictions, and membership of suspicious nationalities in sensitive frontier regions.

The purpose of the Great Terror had nothing to do with worries over phantom resistance to Soviet power.  By 1937 there was no organized resistance to speak of anyway.  Everyone knew that.  Stalin simply felt that state sponsored mass terrorism on a regular basis was the best way to maintain the status quo.  In other words it was just a regular part of governing.  And it did not really matter who wound up getting shot or sent to the Gulag because the records show that after Ezhov's top secret orders were delivered to party bosses in each of the 65 regions of the U.S.S.R. (with the gulag being considered one of the regions) local officials were given 5 DAYS to come up with the lists of the victims (with everything being done by hand -- no computers).  All Moscow cared about were that the quotas were met or exceeded.  Again, the main goal was simply to terrorize the population rather than root out specific enemies of the state.  Otherwise why give only 5 DAYS to round everyone up.  For example, there were numerous cases of mistaken identity where authorities knocked on the wrong door and, because of the haste involved, just dragged off whoever opened it.  So, obviously, it did not really matter who the victims were -- just as long as Stalin's thirst for blood was quenched.  The quota had to be met.  The whole country was turned into a charnel house.

It is true that the quotas were set higher in certain areas (like border regions as well as the gulag, Moscow and Leningrad) but officials did not spend much time checking and rechecking the lists of the victims within each area.  Whether they were "guilty" or innocent was pretty much secondary. 




Offline Zvezda

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #362 on: April 28, 2009, 03:32:46 PM »
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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote about the mentality of the average Soviet citizen under Stalin - which could be boiled down to, "either survive, or thrive."

Research by scholars such as Robert Thurston suggest that most people in the country were not afraid of being repressed. Indeed, they genuinely believed that there were dangerous enemies in the country.

Offline RichC

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #363 on: April 28, 2009, 04:03:32 PM »
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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote about the mentality of the average Soviet citizen under Stalin - which could be boiled down to, "either survive, or thrive."

Research by scholars such as Robert Thurston suggest that most people in the country were not afraid of being repressed. Indeed, they genuinely believed that there were dangerous enemies in the country.

I assume you are referring to Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia.  This book was written in 1996 and from what I can gather, many of Thurston's conclusions (basically that Stalin wasn't so bad after all) have been debunked.  But even Thurston admits that Stalin ruled by terror and intimidation.  You can read the dust jacket flap on Amazon.  It reads, in part, "Ironically, Stalinism helped prepare the way for the much more active society and the reforms of 50 years later."

What a joke.  Maybe in 1996 it looked like Russia was "reforming" and had an "active" society, but not now! 

Offline Zvezda

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #364 on: April 28, 2009, 04:19:13 PM »
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I assume you are referring to Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia. 
I was referring to his essays from scholarly journals:

"The Soviet Family during the Great Terror, 1935-1941"
Soviet Studies, Vol. 43, No. 3 (1991), pp. 553-574

"Social Dimensions of Stalinist Rule: Humor and Terror in the USSR, 1935-1941"
Journal of Social History, Vol. 24, No. 3 (Spring, 1991), pp. 541-562

"Fear and Belief in the USSR's "Great Terror": Response to Arrest, 1935-1939"
Slavic Review, Vol. 45, No. 2 (Summer, 1986), pp. 213-234


Offline Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #365 on: April 28, 2009, 05:39:20 PM »
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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote about the mentality of the average Soviet citizen under Stalin - which could be boiled down to, "either survive, or thrive."

Research by scholars such as Robert Thurston suggest that most people in the country were not afraid of being repressed. Indeed, they genuinely believed that there were dangerous enemies in the country.

Well, if historians such as Robert Thurston are correct, then Daniel Rancour-Laferriere is also correct in his supposition that the chief national characteristic of Russians is their slave mentality. I can't imagine any other people on the face of this planet who would submit willingly - no, worse yet, with their very best wishes! - to a government that exterminated, imprisoned, and/or exiled millions of people solely on the basis of the possibility that they were, as you so vaguely put it,  "dangerous enemies" of their country (reminder: the American communists funded by the Soviet Union could be viewed as dangerous enemies of the United States government, could they not? So why didn't the US government shoot them all in the back of the neck? Hmmmm? By your logic the American government had the perfect right to do so... But you have yet to address this point, which is not surprising, because you never answer any pertinent question, you only engage in evasion and obfuscation).
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Offline Zvezda

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #366 on: April 28, 2009, 07:06:34 PM »
Concerning American Communists, they were repressed by the U.S. Government under the notorious "Smith Act". In 1948, Gus Hall, Eugene Dennis, and other leaders of the Communist Party were prosecuted and sentenced to prison. Gus Hall was released from prison in 1957, under house arrest until 1959, and remained under legal restrictions until 1966.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 07:08:09 PM by Zvezda »

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #367 on: April 28, 2009, 08:48:12 PM »
Concerning American Communists, they were repressed by the U.S. Government under the notorious "Smith Act". In 1948, Gus Hall, Eugene Dennis, and other leaders of the Communist Party were prosecuted and sentenced to prison. Gus Hall was released from prison in 1957, under house arrest until 1959, and remained under legal restrictions until 1966.

Perhaps they were in prison, but they were not subjected for forced labor, starved for food, given no clothing, shot in the head or summarily "disappeared" in the middle of the night never to be heard from again, all as Stalin did against those he chose to repress....I see no genuine comparison here to how Americans treated Communists in the 1950s and the murders of millions of his fellow countrymen Stalin carried out....no comparison at all.  Apologize for Stalin all you want, but you will never erase the blood of some 30 MILLION Russian citizens he murdered on his lunatic whims without benefit of trial, evidence or even legal representation... Ever. Stalin was more of an embarrassment to Russian History than Ivan the Terrible.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #368 on: April 28, 2009, 09:49:29 PM »
. . . the notorious "Smith Act".

The tragic events of 1937-38 were just an overreaction . . . .

So Stalin's random and summary executions of innumerable Russian citizens was "just an overreaction" while the Smith Act was "notorious"?

Case proven.  Alternate universes really do exist.

Offline Zvezda

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #369 on: May 01, 2009, 02:59:08 PM »
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Apologize for Stalin all you want
I don't apologize for Stalin's errors and excesses, but in fact have been strongly critical of them. I prefer a more scientific and balanced analysis of Stalin's leadership rather than deifying or demonizing him.

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, but you will never erase the blood of some 30 MILLION Russian citizens he murdered on his lunatic whims without benefit of trial, evidence or even legal representation.
If you are familiar with serious scholarship by Zemskov and others, then you would know that about 500,000 alleged traitors and criminals were executed in 1937-38. Another one million died in prisons, mostly during the war. None of these actually qualify as "murder". Even the events of 1937-38 would have to be classified as judicial executions.

And it is an established fact that the 4-5 million deaths from famine of 1933 to a large extent resulted from natural causes. The most that can be said about the Russian Government is that it unintentionally exacerbated the famine conditions.

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Stalin was more of an embarrassment to Russian History than Ivan the Terrible.
Along with great patriots like Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoi, Minin & Pozharsky, Kutuzov, Suvorov and great revolutionaries like Bolotnikov, Pugachev, Razin, Bulavin, and the martyrs of the Narodniki and People's Will, Stalin was one of the finest men in Russian history.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 03:01:17 PM by Zvezda »

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #370 on: May 01, 2009, 07:56:51 PM »
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Apologize for Stalin all you want
I don't apologize for Stalin's errors and excesses, but in fact have been strongly critical of them. I prefer a more scientific and balanced analysis of Stalin's leadership rather than deifying or demonizing him.

Quote
, but you will never erase the blood of some 30 MILLION Russian citizens he murdered on his lunatic whims without benefit of trial, evidence or even legal representation.
If you are familiar with serious scholarship by Zemskov and others, then you would know that about 500,000 alleged traitors and criminals were executed in 1937-38. Another one million died in prisons, mostly during the war. None of these actually qualify as "murder". Even the events of 1937-38 would have to be classified as judicial executions.

And it is an established fact that the 4-5 million deaths from famine of 1933 to a large extent resulted from natural causes. The most that can be said about the Russian Government is that it unintentionally exacerbated the famine conditions.

Quote
Stalin was more of an embarrassment to Russian History than Ivan the Terrible.
Along with great patriots like Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoi, Minin & Pozharsky, Kutuzov, Suvorov and great revolutionaries like Bolotnikov, Pugachev, Razin, Bulavin, and the martyrs of the Narodniki and People's Will, Stalin was one of the finest men in Russian history.

"Stalin was one of the finest men in Russian history"? You really want to be remembered for wild statements such as this? Truly, Zvezda, how can anyone reasonably or rationally respond to such an unreasonable and irrational post as yours? It's all but impossible because any reply to you will undoubtedly fall on deaf ears. You've demonstrated over and over again where you fit into the current Russian political scene. It's quite clear from your innumerable (and may I add, largely insufferable and historically inaccurate) posts that you are a stalwart, indeed a fanatical supporter of the Red-Brown (Communist-Fascist) coalition. In other words, you have everything to be ashamed of and the Russian patriots you cite here are rolling over in their graves at the very idea that you could mention Stalin's name in the same sentence as theirs. Not to mention the fact that most if not all of them would have been shot by Stalin as subversives - with your full approval, I'm sure.

Please, give it a break, you are only embarrassing yourself as the latest example of 21st-century Russian nationalism run amok. The more I read your posts, the more I think that Daniel Rancour-Laferriere's psychoanalytic theories about the Russian national identity are probably... absolutely...correct.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 08:12:33 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #371 on: May 01, 2009, 11:11:52 PM »
Indeed, we have strayed very far off topic. Zvezda, I'm sure Stalin would be very proud of your doublespeak, that is before having you summarily shot for being part of some mythical plot against him.

The topic is, "No Stalin, No Hitler". Let us discuss that or let us terminate this discussion.

Offline Zvezda

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #372 on: May 02, 2009, 01:41:02 PM »
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indeed a fanatical supporter of the Red-Brown (Communist-Fascist) coalition.

It is strongly offensive for you to slander me as a Fascist.

If I'm a supporter of the "Red-Brown Coalition", if such a thing even exists, then where does that place you? I take it that you are of the Yeltsin-Gaidar-Yabloko camp that resulted in the country's catastrophe? Basically, in Russphobes' eyes like yourself, the only thing the country can do good should be to surrender, given western monopolies control over the country's resources, limit their ambitions, and award Berezovsky a medal.


« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 01:47:20 PM by Zvezda »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #373 on: May 02, 2009, 07:57:43 PM »
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indeed a fanatical supporter of the Red-Brown (Communist-Fascist) coalition.

It is strongly offensive for you to slander me as a Fascist.

If I'm a supporter of the "Red-Brown Coalition", if such a thing even exists, then where does that place you? I take it that you are of the Yeltsin-Gaidar-Yabloko camp that resulted in the country's catastrophe? Basically, in Russphobes' eyes like yourself, the only thing the country can do good should be to surrender, given western monopolies control over the country's resources, limit their ambitions, and award Berezovsky a medal.




As much as I disagree with most of your postings, I think it's fair to allow you to defend yourself against being called a Fascist, something most Communists would find objectionable.

Having done so, if I don't see any further on topic discussion, I'll get this topic shut down.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: No Stalin, no Hitler?
« Reply #374 on: May 03, 2009, 05:45:30 AM »
I apologize if my previous post did not seem relevant to the topic at hand, but frankly I think it is. No Stalin, no Hitler? is the question. It is still relevant to this day. Are we about to see emerge from the current economic and political chaos that is the Russian Federation a new Stalin or a new Hitler? I would respond yes, quite possibly. It is a very real threat. Furthermore, I would argue that in Russia's current political climate, the new leader who could emerge could be both a new Stalin and a new Hitler, that is, he could very well be a Russian nationalist who embodied some of the worst traits of both the Nazi and the Communist parties.

It's no secret that Russian left-wing and right-wing extremists have found common ground for political rabble-rousing in recent years. One of their chief points in common is Russian nationalism (it could also be called Russian chauvinism), combined with the glorification of Stalin as a great leader of Russia, perhaps Russia's greatest leader ever.

But this is no surprise. Communism and Nazism have always shared many deplorable tenets and practices, even aside from mass murder. As Victor Klemperer wrote in his famous diary in December 1933, "I have again and again emphasized that in the end I equate National Socialism and Communism: both are materialistic and tyrannical, both disregard and negate the freedom of the spirit and of the individual" (I Will Bear Witness, 1933-1941: A Diary of the Nazi Years, New York: Modern Library, 1999, p. 45).

Our great misfortune as human beings is that the legacies of Communism and Nazism live on to this day.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 05:55:54 AM by Elisabeth »
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