No Stalin, no Hitler?

[AGRBear]

This topic is rather pointless--I am the most evil person on the planet!

[glb]MWHAAAHAAAHAAA[/glb]

fear me!
rskkiya

the red
liberal
expat brit
 

HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Let me ponder on that rskkiya  

No, I can't agree.

Surprised???

My vote still is for Stalin.

AGRBear

[moonlight_tsarina]

This topic is rather pointless--I am the most evil person on the planet!

[glb]MWHAAAHAAAHAAA[/glb]

[C.J._Griffin]

Josef Stalin or Adolf Hitler?

Hitler seems to be regarded as THE example of cruelty and tyranny. Do you think he was worse than Stalin?

(I hope this isn't out of place on this board.)

This is kind of like asking which serial killer was worse - Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy. Both Hitler and Stalin were totalitarian tyrants who murdered millions of innocent people in cold blood. If you're looking at body count, then Stalin was probably worse. If you're looking at intent, then Hitler was probably worse. I guess it just depends on your POV.

I think another totalitarian monster should be thrown into the mix. I have been reading a new biography on Chinese Communist dictator Mao Tse-tung by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday. This excellent and massive book, the product of over ten years of research, concludes that Chairman Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler and Stalin, and is probably the biggest mass murderer in all of history, killing more people than the two of them combined ("well over 70 million" - Chang). Review here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-1626700,00.html

Excerpts:

For generations, Mao Tse-tung was the acceptable, even fashionable face of communist tyranny....

Ever since the Soviet archives started to reveal the intimate story of Stalin’s tyranny, people have been tempted to compare Hitler and Stalin. Who killed more people? Who was more depraved...? Mao is never mentioned — but he will be now.

Mao: The Untold Story exposes its subject as probably the most disgusting of the bloody troika of 20th-century tyrant-messiahs, in terms of character, deeds — and number of victims. This study, by Jung Chang, the author of Wild Swans, and her husband, the historian Jon Halliday, is a triumph. It is a mesmerising portrait of tyranny, degeneracy, mass murder and promiscuity, a barrage of revisionist bombshells, and a superb piece of research. This is the first intimate, political biography of the greatest monster of them all — the Red Emperor of China. Using witnesses in China, and new, secret Chinese archives, the authors of this magisterial and damning book estimate that Mao was responsible for 70m deaths. He boasted he was willing “for half of China to die” to achieve military-nuclear superpowerdom.

[Lass]

Mao was responsible for 70m deaths. He boasted he was willing “for half of China to die” to achieve military-nuclear superpowerdom.

Evil would be an understatement there! Mao appears to have had both what Hitler had (the more wicked intent) and what Stalin had (the more wicked actions). Most certainly appears worse. And so chillingly recently!

[C.J._Griffin]

And unlike Hitler and Stalin, but like Saddam Hussein, Mao took a sadistic pleasure in watching films of his victims being tortured and killed.

He also boasted that nuclear war might be a good thing:

“Let’s contemplate this, how many people would die if war breaks out. There are 2.7 billion people in the world. One third could be lost; or, a little more, it could be half… I say that, taking the extreme situation, half dies, half lives, but imperialism would be razed to the ground and the whole world would become socialist.”

After all, according to Mao “If people don’t die, the earth won’t be able to hold them!”

[Margarita Markovna]

Stalin or Hitler? Don't make us choose!

[Lyss]

I don't think you can compare them very well.
But I think Hitler shocked the west more than Stalin, not only because it happened in the west, but because of the history.
Russia was still feodal. They never had the renaissance, communism was just another form of feodalism. (to keep it short and not to explain the entire history)
In feodalism life isn't worth a thing.
So if you look at the background, people in the west just couldn't believe something like that could happened, but also couldn't believe that people brought up like them could do those things.
I'm not trying to make Stalin look good, or explain why he did what he did.
It's just, that we're in the west so Hitler had a bigger impact on us because of the shock it caused on us.

[Elisabeth]

So if you look at the background, people in the west just couldn't believe something like that could happened, but also couldn't believe that people brought up like them could do those things.
I'm not trying to make Stalin look good, or explain why he did what he did.
It's just, that we're in the west so Hitler had a bigger impact on us because of the shock it caused on us.

Good point. It's helpful to look at Western media representations of the Holocaust in this context. Perhaps the majority of books and films on the Holocaust are about middle-class Jewish victims, usually from Western European countries like Germany, France, and Holland (even though the largest number of victims were in fact Polish Jews, many of them from the lower classes). Americans and other Westerners can closely identify with such victims because we share roughly similar cultural backgrounds and class origins. But in the case of Stalin or Mao, most of their victims - 20 million of Stalin's, 30 million of Mao's - were peasants. IMO Americans and western Europeans just have a hard time identifying with the fate of peasants because their way of life seems so incredibly remote to us. It's horribly unjust, but it's the sad truth.

[Finelly]

Good point, Elisabeth.

I also think, however, that a lot of this has to do with timing and secrecy.  The holocaust was no big secret after the Americans and Russians got to the camps, accompanied by photographers and reporters who quickly spread photos and news stories across the world.

In addition, the entire Western world was involved in WWII.  Each victory or loss meant something personal to the citizens of the US, Britain, France, etc.  Because of our soldiers, who were spreading out across the continents, we had a sense of connection to whatever was uncovered/discovered/determined.  

Mao and Stalin, however, did not welcome journalists, enforced censorship, and essentially did not allow the visual and first-hand stories to escape their control.  The vast majority of people in the world did not connect or relate to the peoples of Asia and the tremendous paranoia about Communism in the US, at least, made people avoid the subject of Russia altogether for quite some time.

[AlexP]

I don't think you can compare them very well.
But I think Hitler shocked the west more than Stalin, not only because it happened in the west, but because of the history.
Russia was still feodal. They never had the renaissance, communism was just another form of feodalism. (to keep it short and not to explain the entire history)
In feodalism life isn't worth a thing.
So if you look at the background, people in the west just couldn't believe something like that could happened, but also couldn't believe that people brought up like them could do those things.
I'm not trying to make Stalin look good, or explain why he did what he did.
It's just, that we're in the west so Hitler had a bigger impact on us because of the shock it caused on us.

Really good analysis, Lyss.  It sent me to thinking.  Yes, indeed, perhaps it was shock value, the feodalism, etc.

I look forward to your continued postings.

[Elisabeth]

Good point, Elisabeth.

I also think, however, that a lot of this has to do with timing and secrecy.  The holocaust was no big secret after the Americans and Russians got to the camps, accompanied by photographers and reporters who quickly spread photos and news stories across the world.

In addition, the entire Western world was involved in WWII.  Each victory or loss meant something personal to the citizens of the US, Britain, France, etc.  Because of our soldiers, who were spreading out across the continents, we had a sense of connection to whatever was uncovered/discovered/determined.  

Mao and Stalin, however, did not welcome journalists, enforced censorship, and essentially did not allow the visual and first-hand stories to escape their control.  The vast majority of people in the world did not connect or relate to the peoples of Asia and the tremendous paranoia about Communism in the US, at least, made people avoid the subject of Russia altogether for quite some time.

We also should not forget that many leftist Western journalists and activists worked hand in glove with the Soviets (and later, the Chinese) in covering up the crimes that were going on. Sidney and Beatrice Webb were particularly guilty in this regard (visiting the Soviet Union and then denying the reality of the Great Famine to the international press - meanwhile some 9-10 million died of starvation). But so were many others. Some people had made such an emotional and political investment in the success of the Soviet experiment that they were reluctant to admit, even to themselves, that it had turned out to be a disaster.

[Lyss]

Really good analysis, Lyss.  It sent me to thinking.  Yes, indeed, perhaps it was shock value, the feodalism, etc.

I look forward to your continued postings.

thx AlexP, that realy kind of you.
it's realy nice when your "brainwork" can actualy attribute to something or someone, instead of being laughten away.
The lack of value in human life being still actual in Russia I saw by looking how Poetin reacted on situations like Beslan and the theater in Moscow and then looking at the reaction of Italy and France on the journalists being held in Iraq.  

[RomanovFan318]

Tough question here.

I think that they were both two of the most evil and bloodthirsty dictators the world has ever seen. It's difficult to say who was worse but I'd have to vote for Stalin because he was in power much longer and he killed many more people. But Hitler did start WWII which killed millions around the globe.  

[Chelsea]

Tonight at 8pm ET and 12am ET:
Hitler and Stalin: Roots of Evil
An examination of the minds of two of the 20th century's most brutal dictators and mass murderers--Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. Based on recent psychological and medical studies, the program explores the personalities of these ruthless leaders, who were directly responsible for millions of deaths--their paranoia, suspiciousness, cold-bloodedness, sadism, and lack of human feeling. Includes interviews with Martin Bormann's son and Hitler's butler.

[Tania]

Chelsea,

Re : The program : Hitler and Stalin: Roots of Evil

Unfortunately, I did not have any prior understanding that this would be available, nor in my area of country or state.

If anyone has taped it, i would like to gain a tape of it if at all possible. If there is a place to purchase this I would like to purchase it. Chelsea, would you or anyone know from where, or whom this may be gained ? Thank you in advance for any information available.

Tatiana+

Tonight at 8pm ET and 12am ET:
Hitler and Stalin: Roots of Evil
An examination of the minds of two of the 20th century's most brutal dictators and mass murderers--Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. Based on recent psychological and medical studies, the program explores the personalities of these ruthless leaders, who were directly responsible for millions of deaths--their paranoia, suspiciousness, cold-bloodedness, sadism, and lack of human feeling. Includes interviews with Martin Bormann's son and Hitler's butler.