Author Topic: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem  (Read 86924 times)

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #465 on: April 26, 2005, 06:17:40 PM »
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Penny,

Before you make an even bigger fool of yourself with this chimera theory, do yourself a favor and find a scientist who will explain the papers you found to you. You are completely off base and your scientific ignorance shines through like the desert sun.

Before you throw accusations at people, you should make sure you know what you are talking about, but then again - why would this be any different than anything else you come up with. I am not even going to bother trying to explain this in detail to you, because frankly, your statements are getting to be scary and I want to stay away from you.

I am just going to say that you have misinterpreted everything. These scientists created artificial chimeras by injecting cells into blastocysts. Human chimeras are totally different. They are natural chimeras - between fraternal siblings.  A human cannot be a "true" chimera as they mean it in these papers (a hybrid of two different animals or two different persons) - unless somebody did a Josef Mengele-like human experiment (which will probably be your next theory)...

So go ahead, knock yourself out, discuss all these conspiracy theories and come up with more of your pseudo scientific theories, until the cows come home. I am bailing from this thread because frankly, all this lunacy has become extremely disturbing.


And yet, Helen, and yet.... you have admitted here that your earlier reference to a possible answer was indeed to a chimera.  So you were lying then, or you're lying now -- but to me it doesn't matter.  You've lost your credibility with me as a dispassionate scientist because of the games you've played with us here -- specifically hiding this piece of information because it discolors your favored theory of history.

However, and despite your childish tantrums and accusations and attempts to read my mind and the future (is that how desperate you are?), I will, indeed, feel free to pursue my investigations into all avenues of DNA and genetic science.  I am sorry if this is disturbing to you.  I can only imagine how large a nerve I have hit.
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Offline Vera_Figner

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #466 on: April 26, 2005, 06:18:54 PM »
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Alice wrote:

 I didn't even know what a "Chimera" was, so I Googled for a definition, and had to laugh when this came up:
 
- (Greek Mythology) fire-breathing she-monster with a lion's head and a goat's body and a serpent's tail; daughter of Typhon  
 
- A grotesque product of the imagination
 
So which are we discussing here, the former or the latter?  



Nice, Vera, very nice.  You reveal yourself rather too much, I think.  Especially as I had not said one cross word to you -- yet here you are, flinging your bile and insults at me.  Terribly sorry that my research has caused you to have a temper tantrum...


Surely even you must admit such a comeback is FAR too irresistable! And I wasn't referring to you specifically, sorry to disappoint!
Temper tantrum? No. Very strange reaction, however. A combination of nausea mixed with hilarity!  I am stunned that this chimera theory (wasn't that your 2-minute google research earlier today?) is being taken the least bit seriously.

But I realize with some only the fantastical will do.
It certainly sells better than truth!

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #467 on: April 26, 2005, 06:23:22 PM »
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Ah, what a quick response...I knew you couldn't stay away.  But yes, I believe that some of you here are a few bricks short of a load. My opinion, my very much informed opinion, and I'm entitled to it.  

Your attitude will ALWAYS ALWAYS be remaked upon as well, isn't that fun?

Your conflicting statements...yes. Perhaps in a couple of weeks, as I am working on a major academic project at the moment which must take precedence. It does deal with a specific aspect of Russian history, but not nearly fantastical enough to your liking, so I will refrain from elaboration.  However, I do have a few moments several times a day to check in and yank your simian chain, yes I DO!

And I never said I was going to "prove" you were someone from Yahoo. Yes, you do write a great deal like someone from a few years back over there, his name is also Michael (tho I realize that may not even be your real name) and well, your style is remarkably similar and I have no time nor interest to even begin to look into proving it. I know you must be very let down by all of this, especially since you've brought it up again (I know this kind of attention does great things for you) but you will get over it.



I am not let down by your lack of ability or shall we say time to do it....however perhaps what amuses me the most is your habit of saying absolutely nothing with the exception of personal insults, something you accuse everyone else of.   Now you show your true colors by attacking Penny also.  

Perhaps Vera you need to attend some anger management classes or find some personal fullfilment within your own life, before you start trying to tear down everyone else.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #468 on: April 26, 2005, 06:23:44 PM »
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Perhaps in a couple of weeks, as I am working on a major academic project at the moment which must take precedence. It does deal with a specific aspect of Russian history, but not nearly fantastical enough to your liking, so I will refrain from elaboration.


Ah yes.  A MAJOR academic project.  I'll keep my eye open for its publication.

Quote

However, I do have a few moments several times a day to check in and yank your simian chain, yes I DO!



And someone called ME "scary" and "disturbing".... This sounds quite threatening, and I do hope that the FA will take note of the frightening turn in events heralded in this thread every time Vera Figner posts.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

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Offline Vera_Figner

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #469 on: April 26, 2005, 06:26:36 PM »
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Ah yes.  A MAJOR academic project.  I'll keep my eye open for its publication.


And someone called ME "scary" and "disturbing".... This sounds quite threatening, and I do hope that the FA will take note of the frightening turn in events heralded in this thread every time Vera Figner posts.


What rampant insecurities are observed here! You guys are WAY too funny. Thanks for the laughs.

I will let you know how the Bolshevichki project goes, Penny. So kind of you to inquire!

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #470 on: April 26, 2005, 06:30:41 PM »
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Ah yes.  A MAJOR academic project.  I'll keep my eye open for its publication.


And someone called ME "scary" and "disturbing".... This sounds quite threatening, and I do hope that the FA will take note of the frightening turn in events heralded in this thread every time Vera Figner posts.



Perhaps someone dropped a house on her sister ;)

Offline Vera_Figner

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #471 on: April 26, 2005, 06:32:47 PM »
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Perhaps someone dropped a house on her sister ;)


Actually, it was your mother who FELL on her.

Michael, do you really want to continue in this vein?

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #472 on: April 26, 2005, 06:42:15 PM »
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Actually, it was your mother who FELL on her.

Michael, do you really want to continue in this vein?


No, but then it is up to you, since you are the one dishing out most of the abuse.  As I stated earlier it takes two to tango, and you have managed to tango with everyone on here.  


Perhaps Vera you need to find a sense of humor, did you notice the smilie after the remark, I was joking. Penny didn't deserve what you wrote to her, neither did Denise or Michelle, but you literally blitzkrieged them.
You should take your issue with this & me & the theories discussed on this thread  to PM and we all wish you would.

Offline Alice

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #473 on: April 26, 2005, 06:43:59 PM »
I retract my earlier statement about all hell breaking loose - it seems I spoke too soon.

Hell has, now, broken loose on this thread.

OK, putting aside my earlier definitions of a "Chimera", I'm assuming (seriously, this time) that we are discussing:

- An individual containing cells of two or more different tissues.

Is this the allegation? That Anna Anderson was a "Chimera"? How frequently does this occur in humans?

Edit: It seems, with further Googling, that I found the answer to my own question about the frequency:

Quote
An extremely rare person composed of cells derived from different zygotes. Blood group chimerism is shown by mixed field agglutination when antigen typing red cells. Chimerism can be caused by dizygotic twins exchanging hematopoietic stem cells in utero and continuing to form blood cells that are genetically different, or by dispermic chimerism in which two separate zygotes develop into one person.


Source: http://brie.medlabscience.med.ualberta.ca/de/genetics/70gen-term.html

So the condition is extremely rare (a ratio would be handy, but I have't found one), and yet, it is possible. If I'm interpreting this information correctly, then AA would have to be a twin for this to be possible?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alice »

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #474 on: April 26, 2005, 06:45:58 PM »
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Inquiring mind welcome aboard, stick around for a while and no matter which way you lean in the discussion, don't be afraid to ask questions no matter how choppy the waters get in here....

Well I was also under the assumption that DNA could not be altered by a blood transfusion and have spent some time looking all of this up, and of course it cannot,
so where does this leave us with the chimeria theory?

Any thoughts?  


Thank you for the welcome and also you, Bear.

Frankly, after reading most of the more recent threads in this particular section over the last few weeks...I have yet to figure out what exactly we are theorizing about?

When I hear "a possible answer is that AA was a chimera" does it pertain to:

Different results from the blood sample and the tissue sample

Different DNA labs and experts disputing each others findings.

Whether or not the findings prove  AA is FS

Or something completely different.

I cannot form an opinion because I am not sure what is being referenced.
I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????

Offline Vera_Figner

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #475 on: April 26, 2005, 06:53:21 PM »
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Either will do...... ;) Hmmm....the description puts me in mind of someone on this thread, but I just can't remember what their name is. 8)


Are you referring to this?  Ok, sooo...smiley faces make everything alright? They diffuse insult?

I am telling you they do not.  

If you want to split hairs, we are equally guilty, though, the play on words "latter," and "former" was simply too perfect to ignore (and that has nothing whatsoever to do with Penny! It would have been funny whomever had brought in the theory, it has more to do with word play, something writers enjoy...er...well, most writers, anyway).

And to back this up a bit further, you assaulted me earlier by responding snidely to my response to why this thread got SO very quiet for a while.

Well, first of all, some people are too busy to be online constantly, some people don't care to be online constantly, but the REAL reason the tumbleweeds began to blow through has to do with the stunned reaction of those better acquainted with scientific matters. My response was short because there is no way I could possibly say what I think about the ancient slide, the chimera, etc, ad nauseum, PUBLICLY.

i.e.: my short response to the tumbleweed remark was merely being polite.  But you had to, as usual, pick it up and run with it.
And every time you do that, I promise you, if I am online and see it, it won't get ignored.
So, if you don't like what I have to say, and do NOT wish to do battle, do what you said you'd do on another thread: IGNORE IT.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #476 on: April 26, 2005, 07:00:57 PM »
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When I hear "a possible answer is that AA was a chimera" does it pertain to:

Different results from the blood sample and the tissue sample

Different DNA labs and experts disputing each others findings.

Whether or not the findings prove  AA is FS

Or something completely different.



For me, stating that Anastasia Manahan may have been a chimera (and note I say MAY since it seems only a possibility) is a way of reconciling the conflicting results of the American and German DNA analyses IF both pieces of physical evidence were uncontaminated.

I don't know myself what else it might mean at this time.

PS.  Thanks for giving me a chance to state all in one place what my actual thoughts on this are...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #477 on: April 26, 2005, 07:07:16 PM »
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Are you referring to this?  Ok, sooo...smiley faces make everything alright? They diffuse insult?

I am telling you they do not.  

If you want to split hairs, we are equally guilty, though, the play on words "latter," and "former" was simply too perfect to ignore (and that has nothing whatsoever to do with Penny! It would have been funny whomever had brought in the theory, it has more to do with word play, something writers enjoy...er...well, most writers, anyway).

And to back this up a bit further, you assaulted me earlier by responding snidely to my response to why this thread got SO very quiet for a while.

Well, first of all, some people are too busy to be online constantly, some people don't care to be online constantly, but the REAL reason the tumbleweeds began to blow through has to do with the stunned reaction of those better acquainted with scientific matters. My response was short because there is no way I could possibly say what I think about the ancient slide, the chimera, etc, ad nauseum, PUBLICLY.

i.e.: my short response to the tumbleweed remark was merely being polite.  But you had to, as usual, pick it up and run with it.
And every time you do that, I promise you, if I am online and see it, it won't get ignored.
So, if you don't like what I have to say, and do NOT wish to do battle, do what you said you'd do on another thread: IGNORE IT.


How do you respond to this, except for, get over yourself, the rest of us already have.  Conceited, egotistical woman, we all have something valuable to add to this thread, and this discussion not just you.

You may be impressed with what you consider your academic prowress, however it doesn't impress me one iota,  but when you use it to brow beat others with your opinion than that is tyranny, and should not be done and I for one will not stand for it being done to me or the others here.

You want to battle, then do it by PM, otherwise take the personal degrading remarks about others out of your comments.

Oh & BTW I wasn't referring to you with that comment, but since you have a guilty conscience.... I was referring to it being quiet in general....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Mgmstl »

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #478 on: April 26, 2005, 07:08:55 PM »
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If you want to split hairs, we are equally guilty, though, the play on words "latter," and "former" was simply too perfect to ignore (and that has nothing whatsoever to do with Penny! It would have been funny whomever had brought in the theory, it has more to do with word play, something writers enjoy...er...well, most writers, anyway).



Sorry, Vera, but I don't buy it.  I was the only person to raise the issue of chimera, and so I must have been the "former" that you referred to.  You backpedal now lest you have gone too far.  My conviction in this is borne out by your last sentence referring to "writers"  -- who else here is a writer (though actually I am an author)?  You must again be slamming me, because I am a "writer" and because I am the one who thinks you meant bald-faced insult rather than word-play.

I don't understand the continual hostility, Vera, but please, in future, don't mistake vulgarity for wit.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #479 on: April 26, 2005, 07:16:24 PM »
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Thank you for the welcome and also you, Bear.

Frankly, after reading most of the more recent threads in this particular section over the last few weeks...I have yet to figure out what exactly we are theorizing about?

When I hear "a possible answer is that AA was a chimera" does it pertain to:

Different results from the blood sample and the tissue sample

Different DNA labs and experts disputing each others findings.

Whether or not the findings prove  AA is FS

Or something completely different.

I cannot form an opinion because I am not sure what is being referenced.


I have been reading some genetic sites about DNA and the chimeria issue.  My background is not at all in science.  

I know you have been lurking but here is the basic argument, some of us feel that  subjective issues, the differences between FS & AA as notes in previous threads etc., need to be discussed.  Penny's original thought was if she wasn't FS then who was she.

That has led down several paths and then to this thread
where the issue of the chimeria, within the DNA has been brought up as a possiblity.  

I truly wish I had a better answer for you.  This case has deserved deep investigation for quite a long time, and hopefully Greg & Penny's latest book will help us come to some kind of conclusion.