the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem

[AGRBear]

A paradox and a problem was presented by Sokolov:

>>1. That the people who tried to discredit AA by claiming she was FS were amazingly lucky and by chance she really WAS this obscure girl they just plucked out of the air.
 
OR
 
2. That they were really lucky in a different way and AA's DNA just concidentally (with at best a 1 in 300 chance)  
resembles FS.
 
OR  
 
3. The DNA tets were set up too

 
It has to be one of these three, doesn't it? And when you think about it none of them are mundane. They all require either huge  (almost unbelievable) coincidences or actual real deception.  
 
So, doesn't the whole thing about the DNA  versus the non-physical evidence actually raise more (many more) baffling questions?  
 
Sokolova<<

I think they raise interesting questions and the sister/half sister debate is just one of many.

AGRBear

[Mgmstl]

Hi Bear, et al,

I am back.  Have had to take a break for a bit, because of my Mother's health, etc.  Things are better, BUT we have a long row to hoe as the old country expression goes.

Bear I apologize for deserting you.  This discussion is anything BUT mundane.  The only reason it seems to become so is that because we keep hearing: DNA DNA.

There are too many physical differences between the woman described as FS, and the woman we know as AA,
those physical differences along with the cultural, language issues, are the crux of why I believe further investigation is needed.  

I believe in one of Penny's earlier posts Helen, it may be that Gertrude was possibly a half sister of Franziska, if you look at the marriages of the father.  I think we are
forgetting that possibility.  Jeremy regardless of your new found expertise on DNA, it looks to me that they are more than likely half sisters,  could the mothers have been related in that case?  Always a possibility.

[jeremygaleaz]

Hi Bear, et al,
  Jeremy regardless of your new found expertise on DNA, it looks to me that they are more than likely half sisters,  could the mothers have been related in that case?  Always a possibility.

Then you wouldn't be adverse to providing evidence as to why you believe them to have been half sisters? So, if you have the evidence please feel free to provide the details.   

[AGRBear]

Welcome back Michael.

I know you have a long way to go with your Mom but I'm sure you are going to be there for her every step of the way.  

As for the half sister problem, we don't know the answer.  At the moment we're waiting for Penny's findings which hasn't produced any kind of birth or bap. certificate for Gertrude.

The question about AA being FS is something that needed to be asked and was asked in the trial of AA.  Then, it was asked again, I think by several others on this thead.  I mentioned that Grossmann had been accused of murdering FS, so, if she had been murdered then she couldn't have been AA....  Anyway, one thing has lead to another and be these questions "mundane" is something all of us have to leave up to the person reading these post.
AGRBear

[Annie]

Yes, Jeremy, I'm waiting too!

Michael, perhaps you missed it, but our most recent 'new' evidence on the Schanskowska family makes it look more and more like they were of only one set of parents (perhaps someone can find the new list on this) Gertrude's birth certificate is (perhaps conveniently) 'missing' or 'nonexistant' so we can't prove it. But she fits right into the birth order by her own claim to age. I agree with Massie and all the original info, (including the court case which NEVER MENTIONED THIS) that they were whole sisters.

As far as the other 'differences' go, I have already explained, you really have nothing other than hearsay and he said she said conflicting reports which will never prove anything, not even if those alleged clothes even  belonged to her. We have to go with what we DO have, and that leads to AA being FS (as Helen recently posted, the probability of error is .0000125%! ) I'm afraid it's over!

[AGRBear]

Nope, it's not over.
Why?
We don't know the answer.

AGRBear

[jeremygaleaz]

Nope, it's not over.
Why?
We don't know the answer.

AGRBear

Correction: It's not over for You because you don't know your answer yet.... but that's quite okay. Your speculations aren't hurting anyone

[Mgmstl]

Yes Annie, and I SEVERLY skeptical of ANY evidence presented by you or Jeremy....Sorry that's just the way it is.

[jeremygaleaz]

Yes Annie, and I SEVERLY skeptical of ANY evidence presented by you or Jeremy....Sorry that's just the way it is.

Huh? Simply present your evidence as to why you believe that they were half sisters. Or is this just your personal opinion? No more or less valid than anyone elses.

[Mgmstl]

I think I made my statement plainly & clearly.

I like Bear will await any evidence that Penny has to share with in regards to this issue.

If you will check my earlier posts, Jeremy, you will find that my statement regarding whether or not FS & Gertrude were sisters of the half or full blood, could only be ascertained with the marriage dates of the parents,
census's, canonical christening & birth records & civil birth records.  Since one doesn't exist for Gertrude it doesn't completely exclude her from being  FS 's full sister, it however raises questions, and it is worth looking into.    It also doesn't assure us of Gertrude being her full sister either.   So let's wait until all of the evidence is in.    There is evidence of the father of having three marriages according to Penny,  & I would like to see the evidence before making a decision.

[AGRBear]

Correction: It's not over for You because you don't know your answer yet.... but that's quite okay. Your speculations aren't hurting anyone

A good researcher doesn't assume but looks at the birth/bap certificates.

Michael G., what the problem here is that most of these people have never worked in genealogy.  And, we have.  So, we've seen all the different situations in doing this kind of research.  

Let me tell you people who haven't worked on your genealogy, that all kinds of crazy situations occur.

Heck, if I was trying to track down Gertrude, I'd be looking in all kinds of places.  And,  I don't mean that unkindly or turn her into a child born out of wedlock.  Nor would I just keep my research to the particular year she said she was born.  My one aunt always looked young for her age and  she claims to be ten years younger than my Mom, but my aunt is six or seven years older and so my aunt is marching in the 90s.  Maybe, when she reaches a 100 she'll tell everyone the truth. I said I wouldn't tell.   And, my mother, well, she just smiles and rolls her eyes then says: "Whatever makes her happy."

AGRBear

[Annie]

Yes Annie, and I SEVERLY skeptical of ANY evidence presented by you or Jeremy....Sorry that's just the way it is.

Then  I won't be hung for saying I feel the same way about anything Penny would come up with? (especially if it runs contrary to dozens of other pieces of evidence from the past)

[Mgmstl]

Annie, if the CONDESCENSION would cease, as you all are so very good at inferring that everyone who doesn't believe the DNA 1000% is a quart low, then I think we could have a discussion, however it is impossible for you all to do, I have seen it while I was absent, and if you want civility, then my answer is to cut the crap.

As for your comments on Penny I will answer them thusly:  Penny has raised a valid point, if she wasn't FS then who was she.  YOU, have not been able to get past that, and for whatever personal reasons or agenda you have, you have rebuffed, rejected and repudiated her research.  

I found Fate Of The Romanovs, to be a compelling book, answering many of my questions, and shedding light in areas of the Romanov captivity, and found it to be credible and bringing out things which have never before been brought out.  Greg & Penny did an outstanding job.  I hope that their next book is as good
or better than this one.  

While I believe the DNA evidence,  what you seem to be unable to get past is that these differences to me are substantial.  I wasn't even aware of the Gossman issue until it was brought up here.  All of these alleged issues you challenge, add up in my book, and as a person who has spent long hours looking for answers within their own family, I find that there are no "pat" answers.

The problem is that we have to sift through the evidence, the trials, the transcripts, testimomies, affadavits and statements for answers or to build a case either way, and Annie it may work out that she is FS, if she is then so be it.  I say let the chips fall where they may.   However this is something you seem to be unwilling to do or if the testimony or affadavit goes against the DNA you get upset.  While she may very well be FS, I myself cannot be reasonably sure until these questions have been answered.

As a historical & genealogical researcher with years of experience behind me, I will put faith in what Penny & Greg can unearth and share, they have a great track record so far, and don't seem to be promoting an agenda as others within this group seem to be doing.

[Annie]

LOL at anyone who supports Penny accusing ANYONE else of a 'personal agenda!'

And as I told bear, this question was fairly and sufficiently discussed by many members for a long time. There is no other suspect, because she was FS! Why can't you accept that?

[Mgmstl]

I wasn't around for that discussion Princess, so pardon your royal highness, if I offended you for DARING to discuss something that was discussed before by those far more equipped   than lowly me...  I beg your pardon your royal highness...