Author Topic: Question: Royal Titles in Europe  (Read 7987 times)

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Offline RomanovFan

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Question: Royal Titles in Europe
« on: April 09, 2005, 11:51:45 PM »
I wasn't sure where to post this, but you know how in England, there are Princes/Princesses Dukes and Duchesses? Is it the same way in other Royal European families? Like Count and Countess, what or how would someone have the title of Duke/Duchess or Count/Countess in places like Sweden, Denmark, Greece, Monaco, ect ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RomanovFan »
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Offline Georgiy

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Re: Question: Royal Titles in Europe
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2005, 04:13:32 PM »
Yes, they all have different titles and ranks for nobility and lesser royals, though of course in their own language, and I guess we get the closest English translation, say Count so-and-so for Graf so-and-so of Sweden. (I think it's Graf, my Swedish has got a little rostig - that is, rusty!)

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Question: Royal Titles in Europe
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 08:00:26 AM »
Yes, they all have different titles and ranks for nobility and lesser royals, though of course in their own language, and I guess we get the closest English translation, say Count so-and-so for Graf so-and-so of Sweden. (I think it's Graf, my Swedish has got a little rostig - that is, rusty!)
Almost, in Swedish it's greve.

Interesting topic. All royal and noble titles have their own equivalents in all (at least European) languages with a few exceptions:

- Other languages don't make a difference between Russian великая княгиня and великая княжна, a Grand Duchess by marriage or by birth.
- Other languages don't have good translations of English peer and French pair.
- Other languages don't have good translations of English Sir (and French sire). (Similarly with Southwest European Don and Doña.)
- Other languages don't have good translations of English lord and lady.
- English and Romance languages don't make a distinction between the two princely types: Germanic Fürst and Prinz or Slavic князь and принц.
  Because of that they usually term Grand Princes Grand Dukes.
- While German Durchlaucht and Russian Светлость usually is translated into English and Romance languages as "Serene Highness", they are at a loss as to how  
  to render German Erlaucht and Russian Сиятельство (literally: Illustriousness) without giving it the appearance of a style higher than or on par with Highness.  
  Scandinavian languages can't even render "Serene Highness" properly.
- The semi-official ranks of the lower nobility overlap but have their own specific untranslateable terms in each language: Baronet, Edler, Jonkheer, Junker, Nobile etc.
- Finally other languages don't have their own term for the social aspect of English gentleman, only the noble aspect.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:09:52 AM by Rœrik »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Question: Royal Titles in Europe
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 05:37:13 AM »
As far as British royalty are concerned, under a Royal Warrant of 1917, children of a monarch and grandchildren in the male line are Prince/Princess and HRH automatically, along with the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (the Earl of Wessex's children are technically HRH Prince James and HRH Princess Louise, but their parents have decided that they should be known by the styles of children of an earl - hence Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor).

Dukedoms etc are rather more complicated. The eldest living son of a monarch is automatically Duke of Cornwall from birth or from his parent's accession if later - hence Prince Charles became Duke of Cornwall at the age of three on his mother's accession. When a Duke of Cornwall succeeds as king, the dukedom merges with the crown unless the new king already has a son, to await the birth of the next person entitled. Other dukedoms have to be bestowed, but can then be inherited. For example, the Queen created her second son Duke of York at the time of his marriage. If the current Duke had sons, the eldest would inherit on his death, as has happened with the dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent. The dukedom of York has been unlucky in that respect - only one (Edmund, son of Edward III) has actually produced a son who inherited it). Prince Andrew seems unlikely to produce a son now (he will need to marry again), so on his death the dukedom will become extinct. What I think will then happen is that Prince Charles, having presumably by then succeeded as king, will bestow it on Prince Harry, as Duke of York is traditionally the title of the monarch's second son (exception was Queen Victoria's second son, who was made Duke of Edinburgh.

Grandchildren of a monarch in the female line take any titles from their fathers, so Princess Anne's children are simply Peter and Zara Phillips, and Princess Margaret's are Viscount Linley and Lady Sarah Chatto (nee Armstrong-Jones). Their father is Earl of Snowdon, so the (only) son uses his father's second title by courtesy and the daughter is Lady Christian Name Surname. Any other sons would be the Honourable X Armstrong-Jones.

Male line great-grandchildren of a monarch are not Prince/Princess. Their position is shown by the families of the present Duke of Kent and his brother Prince Michael of Kent. The Duke's elder son uses his father's second title by courtesy and is Earl of St Andrews. The daughter, as the daughter of a duke, is Lady Helen Taylor (nee Windsor), and the younger son Lord Nicholas Windsor. The Earl of St Andrews' elder son (not sure if he has more than one) uses his grandfather's third title by courtesy and is called Baron Downpatrick, daughters are Lady X Windsor. The children of Lady Helen and Lord Nicholas have no titles at all. Prince Michael's children are Lord Frederick Windsor and Lady Gabriella Windsor. Any children they have do not have titles.

Hope this is reasonably clear!

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Question: Royal Titles in Europe
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 01:21:46 AM »
I do love the great differentiation in crowns and coronets for the different grades of British princes and princesses (scroll down), though I bemoan the fact that they just receive the royal arms a little differentiated without any quarterings representing their dukedoms.

In Sweden, where princes (and now also princesses) traditionally receive (life) dukedoms named after Swedish provinces, there seems to have been a very nice tradition of the royal dukes quartering the royal arms (the three crowns of the Kalmar Union and the lion of the Folkung dynasty) with the arms of their dukedoms/provinces. Sadly it's hard to tell whether it's gone out of fashion, as the arms of Victoria, Carl Philip and Madeleine are so seldomly seen.

Swedish ducal coronet:

« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 01:25:18 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Question: Royal Titles in Europe
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 06:20:34 PM »
All royal and noble titles have their own equivalents in all (at least European) languages with a few exceptions:
I forgot to add that Hungarian doesn't differentiate between duke, Fürst/knyaz and prince, but term all three: herceg!
Just like in fellow Finno-Ugric language Finnish, all noble titles in Hungarian (with the possible exceptions of lovag, knight and úr, lord) are (based on) foreign loanwords! Ironic, considering that Hungary once was a very feudal country with one of the highest percentages of nobles in the world!

All the Finnish terms are derived from the Swedish terms. In most cases, like herttua (duke, from hertig), kreivi (count, from greve) or vapaaherri (baron, from friherre), it's pretty obvious, but some of the sovereign titles are not so obvious, as they are derived from ancient Proto-Nordic forms. See this and the following post in the thread Romanov Dukes (sic!) of Finland.


« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 06:22:06 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Manchmal ist ein Prinz nur ein Prinz....
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2010, 05:52:45 PM »
Lol, the Norwegian Broadcaster of the Realm Channel 1 is currently showing the 2000 British TV adaption of "Anna Karenina" and for once, the subtitlers were over-zealous in their use of fyrste / Fürst / князьa, applying it even to the "the foreign prince" Count Vronsky is guiding. In the original he is actually a принцу, Prinz, not a князь, Fürst ! I guess the foreign part and his presumed youth should have tipped them off.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 06:00:59 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Question: Royal Titles in Europe
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2010, 03:28:16 AM »
I have my suspicions that the foreign prince in Anna Karenina is actually an Archduke (or the BBC thinks he is!), as he is wearing a red and white sash from one of the Austrian Orders (doubtless someone will tell me which one!).

Ann