Author Topic: Rasputin & Nicholas  (Read 39693 times)

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TheAce1918

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2007, 10:04:11 PM »
I don't see any problem.

But I've gotten to thinking.  Perhaps there should be a sub-forum beneath the already existant Having Fun thread.  Entitled the Alternative Forum, or What-If thread.  This thread would be open to those who like to really tweak with the often vulnerable edges of history.  It would contain all the AA threads, speculative court cases, and other things of the sort. 

After all, authors do this, and millions dive into their words.

Just a suggestion.   :-\

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2007, 03:27:43 AM »
I agree with Ace :D There should be a "what if" section for conspiracy theories ;D

But I must say Alexei was certainly not doing just fine after his sled accident. He couldn't walk for the last weeks of his life, and had to be carried to the cellar on the night of the execution by Nicholas. One has to wonder, would this have been the case of Rasputin would have still been alive?

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2007, 09:25:36 AM »
The "Having Fun" threads were started to BE the place where "what if" discussions are to take place, it is already there.

As for the IF's feelings about the Imperial Secret Personal Police, Alexandra hated them.  She never understood the vital importance of their following her every move outside the Palace walls.  Please don't forget their mission was NOT to keep tabs on what the IF was doing or where they were going. That information was only to support their main purpose which was to PROTECT the IF from harm. The radical movements at the time were always looking to somehow blow up or kill members of the Imperial Family.

Nicholas, fully aware of the ultimate fate of his grandfather and uncle Serge, had a much different perspective.  When asked to disband the Secret Personal Police at one point he said "I need only to glance behind me and see my good Sprirdovitch keeping watchful eye and know that I am safe".  The subject was closed and never brought up again.  Spiridovitch was later highly rewarded for his service to the Emperor when Nicholas promoted him to General and appointed him in the plum job as Governor of Yalta.


Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2007, 04:48:33 PM »
I allow such threads to start because I always hope that perhaps the poster has some evidence to support the topic, I always allow the discussion time to hopefully bring in some genuine evidence beyond mere fictional supposition before getting strict. Is that a problem?

No, what do you think I was doing? Some people are not online everyday.  People go out of town, etc.  I was hoping that maybe with 1 million people a month on this site, that just maybe something new would come up, not the same things over again. I just wondered if people take things the way they are written or if they question things and wonder about what happened that wasn't documented. That's all.

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2007, 12:22:42 AM »
I allow such threads to start because I always hope that perhaps the poster has some evidence to support the topic, I always allow the discussion time to hopefully bring in some genuine evidence beyond mere fictional supposition before getting strict. Is that a problem?

No, what do you think I was doing? Some people are not online everyday.  People go out of town, etc.  I was hoping that maybe with 1 million people a month on this site, that just maybe something new would come up, not the same things over again. I just wondered if people take things the way they are written or if they question things and wonder about what happened that wasn't documented. That's all.
Just wondering Charley, but then why didn't you just ask, "Does anyone know of any existing evidence that the tsar was involved in Rasputin's murder?"

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2007, 12:59:21 PM »
Well, I kind of thought that I was asking that? I did put a question mark at the end of the subject. I didn't say I had evidence to share.  Is that the problem here.  Do people misread the question or think you are trying to say something your not? I didn't spend hours thinking about how to word the question. This is where I am coming from, I think that every stone has not been unturned. I read a book one time and was discussing it with someone else who had read the book thoroughly and was quite boastful about it.  Then I asked her what she thought about a certain part.  She said, "I never read that in the book before."  "That is such a big deal, I certainly would not have missed that."  I said it is on page 432, second paragraph down. (actually I would have to check the page again) She couldn't believe that she missed it. So, I am sure there are still little clues out there in a book, story, etc., that may shed more light. I am constantly looking for them and I was hoping someone over time may come on the site and say, "Oh, I remember reading or seeing or hearing something." I understand this site is about facts and evidence, but what do you have before you uncover the facts/evidence?

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2007, 02:30:21 PM »
Yet again someone asking questions without actually doing any basic research.  Has the internet destroyed the spirit of genuine enquiry and the art of actually going looking for new material.  Or are we going to chase the same questions and answers round and round until we end up like the fabulous Oozelum bird............ or have we got there already?

Phil Tomaselli

TheAce1918

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2007, 02:55:54 PM »
Yet again someone asking questions without actually doing any basic research.  Has the internet destroyed the spirit of genuine enquiry and the art of actually going looking for new material.  Or are we going to chase the same questions and answers round and round until we end up like the fabulous Oozelum bird............ or have we got there already?

Indeed the internet has done so in many ways.  That's why I always trust libraries and professors more.  The internet serves as only a backdrop for info to me.

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2007, 03:07:09 PM »
Yet again someone asking questions without actually doing any basic research.  Has the internet destroyed the spirit of genuine enquiry and the art of actually going looking for new material.  Or are we going to chase the same questions and answers round and round until we end up like the fabulous Oozelum bird............ or have we got there already?

Are you refering to my intial questions or something else?

Offline Belochka

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2007, 07:07:15 PM »
I think RichC has hit the nail on the head.  Nicholas II had not only enormous resources of money and power at the time, he also had the Okhrana, Secret security police, and lord knows how many loyal people (even that late) who could have made Rasputin disappear so totally that not even the body would be found "if" he had actually wanted it to be so.  The killing itself was so very sloppy, the body was discovered so readily and the evidence of the murder itself speak to the fact that whoever may have pulled the trigger, they were amateurs.   Nicholas would have made sure his people "if" he had wanted R. murdered were far more professional at the task.

FA is correct.

Nikolai reqested his Minister of Internal Affairs to organize protection. Rasputin was not only under 24hr police surveillance after Guseva attempted to murder Rasputin in 1914, but the Palace Okhrana were interested in his welfare as well.

He was murdered after the surveillance team was called off following the independent instruction from the Police Department.

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Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2007, 09:19:29 PM »
He was murdered after the surveillance team was called off following the independent instruction from the Police Department.

Margarita[/color]

Why were they instructed to back away? Didn't the Tsar have the ultimate control over what the Police and Okhrana did? Did he have full access to what they did?

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2007, 09:27:53 PM »
"Why" the Okhrana surveillance agents were ordered to stand down is explained by Spridovitch as follows:  The order came from Protopopov, who was a regular visitor to Rasputin, virtually daily at that time, and he wanted to visit Rasputin, but not have his appearance at Rasputin's flat be on the official record of his own office.  Further, while Protopopov was visiting R. that fatal night, he was very nervous and begged R. not to go out again that night "for any reason at all."

Offline Belochka

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2007, 09:51:06 PM »
Nikolai was far away at Stavka.

The conspirators needed a small window of opportunity (a few hours during the night) to achieve their intended result.

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2007, 09:54:18 PM »
"Why" the Okhrana surveillance agents were ordered to stand down is explained by Spridovitch as follows:  The order came from Protopopov, who was a regular visitor to Rasputin, virtually daily at that time, and he wanted to visit Rasputin, but not have his appearance at Rasputin's flat be on the official record of his own office.  Further, while Protopopov was visiting R. that fatal night, he was very nervous and begged R. not to go out again that night "for any reason at all."

Indeed Protopopov's name does not conveniently appear in the Police register (I have a copy) of all persons who had ever interfaced with Rasputin.

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Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2007, 04:06:30 PM »
and he wanted to visit Rasputin, but not have his appearance at Rasputin's flat be on the official record of his own office. 

Why was this?