Author Topic: Rasputin & Nicholas  (Read 39695 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2007, 02:26:21 PM »
While it is of course important to understand what happened at Spala, THIS thread is to discuss was the "Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?".  So, please take discussion about the physiological effects of any R may have had on Alexei over to the "Incident at Spala" thread where MUCH has been discussed.

HERE the only relevance is what Nicholas, Alexandra or others BELIEVED had happened, which would have, or not have, influenced their actions.


Offline charley

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2007, 10:28:06 PM »
Wasn't Rasputin very into herbs and such. Didn't he get his medicines from a "Doctor" named Bahtmadiev (sp) or something? If he was using some sort of tonic on Alexis, could the Tsar have uncovered how Rasputin went about his "healings". If that was the main reason he kept him around, he would no longer need him. How do you think the Tsar really felt about Rasputin's death? He probably couldn't say much in his diary knowing his wife could read it at anytime. Didn't the Tsarina recover very quickly after his death?

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2007, 07:37:42 AM »
I don't believe that Alix "recovered quickly" after Rasputin's death.  She mourned him as she would any close friend and had him buried in the Tsarskoe Selo Park Grounds.

She also took immediate action in trying to have both Dimitri and Felix arrested, but since only the Tsar can arrest immediate family members, she had no power.

Of course she harangued Nicholas with her thoughts and wants in the situation.

Did she have a nervous breakdown?  No, it isn't documented.  She was a strong woman no matter how much we read of her "physical ailments" and her alleged 'mental' deficiencies.  And the hurt didn't stop with Rasputin's murder. 

Measles struck the palace.  Nicholas abdicated.  The family was imprisoned in their own home.  Then came the rejection from England for asylum.

The woman didn't have time to sit and mourn, although I believe that she did mourn quietly for the rest of her short time on earth.

Offline charley

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2007, 11:26:35 AM »
I just read the letters from Alix to Nicky. The night R was murdered and the next day, her letters talk about various subjects and even included gossip related to Anna V.  She barely mentioned him being missing until the end.  It really didn't seem to be that upsetting to her to mention it at the end as an afterthought. If she didn't want to bring it up with him right away, maybe she sensed or he even told her in private how he felt about R and therefore she was careful how she approached him in regards to the matter.

Offline Greenowl

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2007, 05:59:44 PM »
There are people who would seem to "precognitive" abilities.  Rasputin did seem to know things.  Like Stolypin's murder and that Nicholas should keep Russia out of the Great War.

On another thread, the last letter from Rasputin about his death, was posted to be a forgery.  The one in which he tells the Imperial Family that if one of them had killed him that they would all die within three years.  While it is quite true that they lost their throne, not everyone died within three years.

I have never seen a horse whisperer, but I have known people who seemed to "know" what was going to happen and not just in a general way either.  One prophecy (if you can call it that) was about a person who had cancer and was dying.  The woman who seemed to know said that while the cancer patient would live to see her 50th wedding anniversary (which was June 23) she would not live to see the Fourth of July.  The cancer patient died on July 3rd.

I still get shivers when I remember that.  That was not just a general "she will die soon" that was a specific time period.

Thanks for that Alixz! It is the old "chicken and egg" situation. The prediction about Stolypin's death is odd. On the other hand, his advice to Nicholas to keep Russia out of the war sounds more like common sense to me than an actual prophecy. As far as I know, he also warned Nicholas to ensure that the people had sufficient food...again, something that should have been obvious (but apparently was not). However, the Spala telegram is strange, as if he was only guessing he was taking a terrible risk, as he would have been exposed had Alexis died and probably lost all of his affluent followers. I had heard that his secretary (correct me if I'm wrong) forged the letter in which Rasputin is supposed to have told the Imperial Family that if one of them killed him they would all die within three years.

A horse whisperer does not actually predict the future, but suggests things and passes messages from the horse to humans and vice versa. With regard to the prophecy you mentioned: I wonder if that is not more in the nature of a suggestion...i.e. had the woman told the unfortunate cancer patient that she would live to see 4th. July would she have believed, clung on to life as a result, and passed away on 6th. instead of 3rd. July? Suggestion can be very strong (as proved by my encounter with the horse whisperer) and therefore I wonder if Rasputin's "skills" were not of that type?

Sorry for digressing!

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2007, 07:39:40 PM »
Greenowl,

I did not explain my story clearly.  :)  The cancer patient was not told of the "prophecy", I was.  I never said anything to her or her family until after the person's death.  I didn't want them to have more sorrow as they believed that she was going to live a lot longer than that.

As for staying alive until her 50th wedding anniversary, I thought that that could have been pure determination and it was one of the most unsettling things I have ever been through.  The 50th anniversary party was like attending a wake and the person was still alive, but in a bed instead of a coffin.  (Alixz shivers as if cold)

However, I am digressing as well and FA has instructed us not to.

You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan.  One of the great mysteries of the 20th century.

Offline charley

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2007, 09:34:19 PM »
You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan. 

 I translated the words "La Maladie ne parait pas dangereuse" and my literal translation is "The Disease does not appear dangerous." Now with that being said, the doctors said he was dying, they had given up all hope and Rasputin says, "The disease does not appear dangerous", then the doctors would have been completely wrong in their diagnosis or Rasputin didn't really know what he was talking about. If it wasn't a serious illness, as he said, then it would have healed on its own anyway. I think this is actually relative to the question I initially asked because a big reason why some say the Tsar was not involved was because he needed Rasputin. Maybe he didn't after all.   

Offline RichC

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2007, 10:34:18 PM »
I just read the letters from Alix to Nicky. The night R was murdered and the next day, her letters talk about various subjects and even included gossip related to Anna V.  She barely mentioned him being missing until the end.  It really didn't seem to be that upsetting to her to mention it at the end as an afterthought. If she didn't want to bring it up with him right away, maybe she sensed or he even told her in private how he felt about R and therefore she was careful how she approached him in regards to the matter.

Much of Alexandra's letter to Nicholas of December 17th is about Rasputin's disappearance.  I don't see anything at all in it that would cause one to think Nicholas did not, in the main, share her feelings about Rasputin.   

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2007, 10:35:45 PM »
I don't think that the Tsar needed Rasputin.  I think that Alix needed Rasputin and the Tsar wanted what Alix wanted.  And indeed there seemed to be a relationship between Rasputin's "prayers" and Alexis feeling better.

I don't think that Nicholas would have ordered the killing of Rasputin.  All he had to do was send him back to Pokrovskoe.  He did that at least once.  But Alix believed and Nicholas was, as I said before, between a very hard rock and very hard place.  How to keep sanity when his wife was badgering him and his son kept coming to the brink of death?

If Nicholas had asked anyone to kill Rasputin, I believe that he would have gone with "black ops" not his relatives.  Many people had disappeared over the years by the Tsar's command into Siberia and into prison.  I know that Rasputin had a large following, but it would have been ill advised for Nicholas to ask any member of his own family to kill someone whom he could just exile.

Offline Greenowl

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2007, 06:22:47 AM »
Greenowl,

I did not explain my story clearly.  :)  The cancer patient was not told of the "prophecy", I was.  I never said anything to her or her family until after the person's death.  I didn't want them to have more sorrow as they believed that she was going to live a lot longer than that.

As for staying alive until her 50th wedding anniversary, I thought that that could have been pure determination and it was one of the most unsettling things I have ever been through.  The 50th anniversary party was like attending a wake and the person was still alive, but in a bed instead of a coffin.  (Alixz shivers as if cold)

However, I am digressing as well and FA has instructed us not to.

You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan.  One of the great mysteries of the 20th century.

Thanks Alixz. That is most interesting and creepy. It is really difficult to know where the thin line is between an educated guess and a sixth sense. Apologies again to FA for digressing. Back to the topic under discussion: I agree with what you say and find it very difficult to imagine that Nicholas was in any way involved in Rasputin's murder, as he had little to gain and many other options at his disposal. I also believe that he would never have been disloyal/dishonest or act against Alexandra in such a way

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2007, 08:26:11 AM »
Thanks Greenowl,

I also think that Nicholas (had he been involved) might have acted sooner.  Why wait until the war was underway and he was in Stavka to deal with something that could have been dealt with much much sooner.

Of course, Rasputin really didn't get as involved with politics and the government until Nicholas put Alexandra in charge of the government.  She was a pushover for Rasputin.  For Nicholas, not so much.

But I still believe that Nicholas would have just 'banished" Rasputin (which he tried to do earlier) or arrested him.  Nicholas does not seem Machiavellian.  He may have vacillated and delayed in making decisions, but he never plotted.

The only thing that comes to mind is that if Nicholas made an off hand remark in the presence of Zinaida Yusupov or Dimitri Pavlovich or even Grand Duchess Ella, someone might have taken it upon themselves to interpret the remark to mean that Nicholas would like to be rid of Rasputin and then acted on their own thinking that they were in tune with Nicholas's wishes on the subject.

But I still stand by the quote that 10 Rasputin's were better than one angry Alexandra.  IMHO that tells us what Nicholas truly thought about tolerating the starets.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2007, 09:03:07 AM »
Let us also not forget that Nicholas II was presented with "reports" about how awful Rasputin was, once by Stolypin himself.  Nicholas had the claims of all three reports investigated, and it turned out that the majority of the worst reports were either exaggerated or out right fabrications.  After the third one, Nicholas pretty much stopped listening to further reports of Rasputin's alleged debaucheries, dismissing those who tried to tell him as just being jealous, petty or trying to remove Rasputin from Imperial favor.

Sadly, those who were trying to tell the truth about Rasputin did themselves a huge disfavor by not just being honest and by not actually double checking the veracity of claims presented.  They ended up helping Rasputin, rather than hurting him.


Offline charley

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2007, 01:09:31 PM »
I guess we would have to ask if R caused any threat to the monarchy.  I thought his family was on him about Rasputin. Do you think he would appease one woman or the rest of his family who he believed, at the time, were trying to overthrow him? Was an upset wife more important than his monarchy?
 Also, with so much mysticism involved in Russia, and the Tsar's believe in it, it is possible that a legitmate starets, like Saint Seraphim (although he was already dead) may have told him that R was really bad news and would cause great harm to Russia.  We don't know if he had lived, what he would have done. The Tsar received letters of prophesy from two different sources. We do not know what was contained in the letters, but we also do not know if the letters mentioned a "man of God" who was not.



Much of Alexandra's letter to Nicholas of December 17th is about Rasputin's disappearance.  I don't see anything at all in it that would cause one to think Nicholas did not, in the main, share her feelings about Rasputin.  

I have the first publishing of the letters. The book is over eighty years old. The letter Tsarskoje, Dec. 17-th 1916 (no.404) only mentions Rasputin in a few paragraphs at the end of the letter. Eight paragraphs are completely unrelated to R.

Thanks Greenowl,
 but he never plotted.
And how do you know this? Does he say in his diary, "I am not a plotter." I am not trying to sound disrespectful, but I am constantly told I need proof to back up what I say. I am not mad or disgusted. On the contrary, I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion.  Of course it would be nice to have one person think the way I do, but that's okay.
For you men out there who are married. Don't you, honestly, not divulge every feeling you have that goes against what your wife thinks? Maybe a pretty woman walks by and you think, oohhh, she is something. Are you actually going to tell your wife that? Or maybe that you think she drives you crazy at times, do you tell her?  I think not. My point is that the Tsar could have easily appeased his wife and knew exactly what she wanted to hear and went along with her to, "keep the peace". And because she felt that Nicholas was on the same page as her, would never have suspected him and therfore after the death of Rasputin, he would not have to deal with an angry wife, but a griefing one.
Two murderers were exiled, what happened to the third?

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2007, 02:56:15 PM »
Has anyone thought of the possibility that the Tsar may have been involved in Rasputin's death? 

I seriously doubt it.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2007, 03:14:48 PM »
You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan. 

 I translated the words "La Maladie ne parait pas dangereuse" and my literal translation is "The Disease does not appear dangerous." Now with that being said, the doctors said he was dying, they had given up all hope and Rasputin says, "The disease does not appear dangerous", then the doctors would have been completely wrong in their diagnosis or Rasputin didn't really know what he was talking about. If it wasn't a serious illness, as he said, then it would have healed on its own anyway. I think this is actually relative to the question I initially asked because a big reason why some say the Tsar was not involved was because he needed Rasputin. Maybe he didn't after all.   

This is about as ridiculous a statement as I have ever heard. There is no doubt whatsoever that Alexei was dying.  The physical swelling was obvious to everyone and the doctors who examined him knew what they were doing.  Nicholas believed Alexei would die. Alexandra and the girls all believed it. Alexei himself felt he would die. Rasputin was not even THERE, so how could he know himself about Alexei's illness? THIS statement is exactly why Charley you must start doing your own research.