Author Topic: Rasputin & Nicholas  (Read 39713 times)

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Alixz

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2007, 06:25:27 PM »
Charley,

Rasputin knew about the illness because a telegram was sent to him in Pokrovskoe.  His reply is what calmed Alexandra's fears and his advice not to allow the doctors to "tire" him too much was just good advice.  From the moment she received the reply she "believed" (as FA has said) that Alexei would get better.  And it is what Alexandra and those around Alexei believed that counts.

And Greenowl,

I don't have any source that tells me that NIcholas didn't plot.  But I do have sources that say that he was "shy, thoughtful and exceptionally polite."  The court of the Last Tsar by Greg King.  page 34    I am looking for more.  I'll post later.

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2007, 06:27:15 PM »
/quote]
This is about as ridiculous a statement as I have ever heard. There is no doubt whatsoever that Alexei was dying.  The physical swelling was obvious to everyone and the doctors who examined him knew what they were doing.  Nicholas believed Alexei would die. Alexandra and the girls all believed it. Alexei himself felt he would die. Rasputin was not even THERE, so how could he know himself about Alexei's illness? THIS statement is exactly why Charley you must start doing your own research. 

Obviously the boy was dying. I am well aware of that. My point is that if this man is a starets and people believe he healed Alexei with a letter or a note to the family at Spala, it seems pretty unlikely, seeing that he couldn't even get the diagnosis right. That is my point.

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2007, 06:35:03 PM »
Charley,
Rasputin knew about the illness because a telegram was sent to him in Pokrovskoe.  His reply is what calmed Alexandra's fears and his advice not to allow the doctors to "tire" him too much was just good advice.  From the moment she received the reply she "believed" (as FA has said) that Alexei would get better.  And it is what Alexandra and those around Alexei believed that counts.
Sorry I posted right when you did. Alexei wasn't better when the telegram was sent out.  Wasn't he still critical? Why would R say the disease does not appear dangerous. It was very much so.  Was he just saying that to make her happy and wasn't that risky on R's part if Alexei still might die?

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2007, 09:55:28 PM »
Let us also not forget that Nicholas II was presented with "reports" about how awful Rasputin was, once by Stolypin himself.  Nicholas had the claims of all three reports investigated, and it turned out that the majority of the worst reports were either exaggerated or out right fabrications.  After the third one, Nicholas pretty much stopped listening to further reports of Rasputin's alleged debaucheries, dismissing those who tried to tell him as just being jealous, petty or trying to remove Rasputin from Imperial favor.

Sadly, those who were trying to tell the truth about Rasputin did themselves a huge disfavor by not just being honest and by not actually double checking the veracity of claims presented.  They ended up helping Rasputin, rather than hurting him.


exactly. When people lie and exaggerate, it does the exact opposite of what they intended to do by lieing.

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2007, 09:57:00 PM »
Charley,
Rasputin knew about the illness because a telegram was sent to him in Pokrovskoe.  His reply is what calmed Alexandra's fears and his advice not to allow the doctors to "tire" him too much was just good advice.  From the moment she received the reply she "believed" (as FA has said) that Alexei would get better.  And it is what Alexandra and those around Alexei believed that counts.
Sorry I posted right when you did. Alexei wasn't better when the telegram was sent out.  Wasn't he still critical? Why would R say the disease does not appear dangerous. It was very much so.  Was he just saying that to make her happy and wasn't that risky on R's part if Alexei still might die?
But of course, if somehow Rasputin knew Alexei would not die, then it would make sense. It wasn't very often his predictions were not true. He was no charlatan.

Offline RichC

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2007, 09:58:01 PM »


Much of Alexandra's letter to Nicholas of December 17th is about Rasputin's disappearance.  I don't see anything at all in it that would cause one to think Nicholas did not, in the main, share her feelings about Rasputin.   

I have the first publishing of the letters. The book is over eighty years old. The letter Tsarskoje, Dec. 17-th 1916 (no.404) only mentions Rasputin in a few paragraphs at the end of the letter. Eight paragraphs are completely unrelated to R.


My mistake, Charley.  Nevertheless there is nothing there that would cause one to think Nicholas did not share the Empress' feelings, in the main, about Rasputin. 

I just read the letters from Alix to Nicky. The night R was murdered and the next day, her letters talk about various subjects and even included gossip related to Anna V.  She barely mentioned him being missing until the end.  It really didn't seem to be that upsetting to her to mention it at the end as an afterthought. If she didn't want to bring it up with him right away, maybe she sensed or he even told her in private how he felt about R and therefore she was careful how she approached him in regards to the matter.

Also, Alexandra composed her letters to Nicholas over long periods of time, putting them aside for hours at a time, then taking them up again later.  She often did not compose her letters from start to finish in one single sitting.  In other words, the sections (at the beginning) where she gossips, etc., MAY have been written before she knew anything sinister was up with Rasputin.

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2007, 10:00:15 PM »
There are people who would seem to "precognitive" abilities.  Rasputin did seem to know things.  Like Stolypin's murder and that Nicholas should keep Russia out of the Great War.

On another thread, the last letter from Rasputin about his death, was posted to be a forgery.  The one in which he tells the Imperial Family that if one of them had killed him that they would all die within three years.  While it is quite true that they lost their throne, not everyone died within three years.

I have never seen a horse whisperer, but I have known people who seemed to "know" what was going to happen and not just in a general way either.  One prophecy (if you can call it that) was about a person who had cancer and was dying.  The woman who seemed to know said that while the cancer patient would live to see her 50th wedding anniversary (which was June 23) she would not live to see the Fourth of July.  The cancer patient died on July 3rd.

I still get shivers when I remember that.  That was not just a general "she will die soon" that was a specific time period.

Thanks for that Alixz! It is the old "chicken and egg" situation. The prediction about Stolypin's death is odd. On the other hand, his advice to Nicholas to keep Russia out of the war sounds more like common sense to me than an actual prophecy. As far as I know, he also warned Nicholas to ensure that the people had sufficient food...again, something that should have been obvious (but apparently was not). However, the Spala telegram is strange, as if he was only guessing he was taking a terrible risk, as he would have been exposed had Alexis died and probably lost all of his affluent followers. I had heard that his secretary (correct me if I'm wrong) forged the letter in which Rasputin is supposed to have told the Imperial Family that if one of them killed him they would all die within three years.

A horse whisperer does not actually predict the future, but suggests things and passes messages from the horse to humans and vice versa. With regard to the prophecy you mentioned: I wonder if that is not more in the nature of a suggestion...i.e. had the woman told the unfortunate cancer patient that she would live to see 4th. July would she have believed, clung on to life as a result, and passed away on 6th. instead of 3rd. July? Suggestion can be very strong (as proved by my encounter with the horse whisperer) and therefore I wonder if Rasputin's "skills" were not of that type?

Sorry for digressing!
Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2007, 04:42:35 AM »

[/quote]
Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.
[/quote]

I think that is the one prediction that is false...i.e. Rasputin never made it. It was "invented" after his death by (I think) his former secretary.

Alixz

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2007, 07:51:56 AM »
Charley,

Rasputin did know the cause of Alexei's illness because he had "been there, done that" before.  When Alix telegraphed him from Spala, all she had to do was to tell him that Alexei was ill from the same problem again and he would know what it was.

The translations are up for debate because from Russian to French to English, things are not always completely translatable.  Also, eyewitnesses are notoriously inaccurate in their descriptions of a situation (I am not saying that Spiro.. was inaccurate) because even today, law enforcement will tell you they will get many many different descriptions of the same crime scene.  All from the "eyewitnesses".

It seems you are trying to make it sound as if Rasputin didn't understand the situation because he wasn't there, but he didn't need to be there.  He knew the situation and he knew how to handle Alix.  The only problem would have been, had Alexei died after the telegram, then Rasputin would have been wrong.  Not about what his illness was but about the projected outcome.

But as Martyr said, Rasputin's predictions were not often wrong.

Greenowl,  we had an electrical storm last night while I was looking for more references to Nicholas not "being a plotter", so that is why I left in a hurry. I lost one set of electronics in an electrical storm a few years ago and I wanted to shut down.

However, there is information that he "plotted" to slant the election of the third duma to get the right combination of delegates that he thought he could work with (or against as he refused to give up autocratic control). All though the word "plotted" is not what the source uses.  I will post the source later.

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2007, 08:31:58 AM »

Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.
[/quote]

I think that is the one prediction that is false...i.e. Rasputin never made it. It was "invented" after his death by (I think) his former secretary.
[/quote]

That was a total fabrication. Rasputin NEVER said it, it was indeed made up by his former secretary Simanovich.

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2007, 09:53:57 AM »
Thanks for confirming that, FA. As far as I can remember, the secretary (Simanovich) wrote a book about his former employer in the early 1920s, and that is what started the myth.

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2007, 04:42:52 PM »
Charley,
Rasputin did know the cause of Alexei's illness because he had "been there, done that" before.  When Alix telegraphed him from Spala, all she had to do was to tell him that Alexei was ill from the same problem again and he would know what it was.
The translations are up for debate because from Russian to French to English, things are not always completely translatable.  Also, eyewitnesses are notoriously inaccurate in their descriptions of a situation (I am not saying that Spiro.. was inaccurate) because even today, law enforcement will tell you they will get many many different descriptions of the same crime scene.  All from the "eyewitnesses".
It seems you are trying to make it sound as if Rasputin didn't understand the situation because he wasn't there, but he didn't need to be there.  He knew the situation and he knew how to handle Alix.  The only problem would have been, had Alexei died after the telegram, then Rasputin would have been wrong.  Not about what his illness was but about the projected outcome.
But as Martyr said, Rasputin's predictions were not often wrong.

I am sorry, I am still having trouble with this. I guess first, does anyone have the words from the Rasputin telegram in Russian? You are right about things being translated from one language to another to another. It is sometimes like telling a child a secret and then he tells the next child and he tells the next child and the secret is now quite different. If this was the same condition as in the past with Alexei, did he tell the doctors, at that time, not to bother him much. If he did say it is not serious at Spala, and meant it, then they would have never needed him to begin with and he would have known that. And things would have gone the way they went regardless of him being there. Do you think he had other motives for being with the family?

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2007, 05:06:21 PM »
Belochka has the Russian version of Spiridovitch and we have already compared them a long time ago and they are exactly the same.

"The illness does not appear/seem serious. Do not let the doctors make him tired." 

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2007, 05:43:34 PM »

Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.

I think that is the one prediction that is false...i.e. Rasputin never made it. It was "invented" after his death by (I think) his former secretary.
[/quote]

That was a total fabrication. Rasputin NEVER said it, it was indeed made up by his former secretary Simanovich.
[/quote]hi. Has it been totally proven it was false? And when, because it is still repeated in so many books as being authentic.

Alixz

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2007, 05:48:51 PM »
Thank you , FA.

But the illness was serious, so serious that the court began publishing updates and getting ready to announce Alexei's death.  In an early post we read that everyone thought that Alexei was going to die and everyone knew that this time, the illness was very serious.

Yet with the translation now confirmed, Rasputin said that "the illness does not appear/seem serious."  I find that interesting because it does show what FA said before that what Alexandra and Nicholas and everyone else "believed" was what was important.  They believed Rasputin and not the doctors and they believed that the illness was not serious.

But this has nothing to do with whether or not the tsar was involved in Rasputin's death.  Certainly after the incident at Spala (and that was in 1912) the tsar would have no reason to eliminate Rasputin.  The starets had just performed a "miracle" and saved his son's life.

No matter how awful Rasputin's personal life was and no matter how badly he and Alix ran the country while Nicholas was at Stavka during the war, the man seemed to have the power of life in his hands.  Not a reason for any father to engage in plotting to kill another person.

And Martyr - you change you user name faster than I change my socks!!!!   ???  I just got an email notice that eminem had posted and I logged in to find that you are now Martyr.   :o