Author Topic: Rasputin & Nicholas  (Read 39674 times)

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Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2007, 07:31:54 PM »
But this has nothing to do with whether or not the tsar was involved in Rasputin's death.  Certainly after the incident at Spala (and that was in 1912) the tsar would have no reason to eliminate Rasputin.  The starets had just performed a "miracle" and saved his son's life.

  The reason this discussion about Alexei came up was because an earlier post suggested Nicholas would never have been involved in the murder because he felt he needed R for his son. We were discussing it to try and come up with a conclusion on whether or not he did feel he was important enough to keep around.
  To say "he had just performed" is not really accurate because R was not killed for five more years.  Alot could have happened in that time frame. Wasn't there one of the IF's maids supposedly raped by R? I just do not believe that everything in the palace was just rosey with R around.  How could Nicholas be okay when his wife is constantly writing to him when he was at war, telling him our friend said this or our friend said you need to do this. Wasn't that highly impertinent on Rasputins part? How did the Tsar deal with impertinents? 

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2007, 08:26:25 PM »
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.


Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2007, 11:26:51 PM »
I know this is off the subject but the story about the rape being proved false.  Where was that mentioned three times?  I must not have "the proper research books".  Which book or source claims this did not take place?  You have made me curious and I would like to read up on it as I had never heard or read that story was false.  I apologize if I missed on this thread.  I try to read everything on the ones I'm interested in but sometimes miss a few posts.

Also I wish everyone would get off Charlie's case about "doing her own research".  She has made is quite clear she is a newbie.  I am as well and although I have a pretty extensive collection and have read on the subject for many years obviously I do not have the depths of "knowledge" and resources that many of you have.  Some of the out of print books cost more than a hundred dollars if you can find them, also if you live in a smaller town they libraries just don't have a huge amount on this subject.  If Charlie is like me she is on the forum to enjoy the discussion and to learn more.  Is it really necessary to be so patronizing and make fun of her? 

To Charlie, I have to admit I enjoy your threads.  They sure seem to generate interesting discussions and seem to be popular as well based on the number of hits received.

TheAce1918

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2007, 12:30:41 AM »
Also I wish everyone would get off Charlie's case about "doing her own research".  She has made is quite clear she is a newbie.  I am as well and although I have a pretty extensive collection and have read on the subject for many years obviously I do not have the depths of "knowledge" and resources that many of you have.  Some of the out of print books cost more than a hundred dollars if you can find them, also if you live in a smaller town they libraries just don't have a huge amount on this subject.  If Charlie is like me she is on the forum to enjoy the discussion and to learn more.  Is it really necessary to be so patronizing and make fun of her? 

No one is making fun of anyone on purpose here.  But this is a site that is heralded for its facts and educational benefits.  However, I can completely understand where you are coming from in terms of resources, finances for the treasured texts that are discussed here, and the fact that we are all here to have fun and to interact in conversation.  Believe me, I felt a little out of place and thrown in the corner on certain posts in the past.  I myself can relate to being patronized.  Which in several ways and forms, have forced me to keep numerous opinions to myself.  :D

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2007, 04:28:46 AM »
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.


how do you want me to prove to you where I live? In fact, I don't understand why I would want to give out my private information?
Come to think of it, how am I even supposed to prove to you that I don't live near him when I don't even know where he lives?

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2007, 04:52:04 AM »
Its quite amazing that Charley's initial post has spawned... now seven pages.   

The Spala 'miracle' made Nicholas believe that Rasputin was capable of healing - even from a distance - his son's potentially fatal illness.   

What absolutely confirmed the Emperor's belief in Rasputin's healing powers was the 'miracle' cure of Ania Vyroubova following her near fatal (as she describes it) train crash.   Doctors believed she was beyond help until Rasputin was summoned from St Petersburg.   A dramatic improvement in her condition coinciided with the arrival of the staretz.

What human being with the sword of Damocles dangling over his child - particularly when that human being is an emperor and the child, his only son and heir - would participate in the destruction of the one force on this earth apparently capable of warding off impending death?

tsaria

Alixz

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2007, 08:15:22 AM »
I am going to digress thoroughly here - for that FA, I apologize in advance.

To Ace, Charley and anyone else who feels occasionally "out of place and thrown into a corner" - I and a few others whom I shall not name (they can do that themselves if they want) have not only been "thrown into a corner" but I have been personally attacked and my very belief foundation (the things that make me, well me) has been put in question by a couple of posters who like to "poke" people.

I complained to FA on numerous occasions to please intervene on my behalf and also on behalf of those others (who can name themselves if they chose).  I even tried to quit the forum.

But a good many truly nice posters pm'd me and told me not to quit.  They told me to stay and not to let others "get under my skin".  I even received kudos for my postings and for my positions in the form of pm's.  Some of us have thin skins (like me) and some of have much thicker skins and some here just seem to like to "stir up controversy" and then sit back and watch others squirm.

My sources have been questioned, my sources sources have been questioned, and my deductions based on these sources have been questioned.  There were days when I sat in tears trying to compose a reply to a particularly nasty and sarcastic post.  My husband and son have both told me that posting here is not worth the pain and that I should just get out.

However, I have learned a great deal here about the Romanovs and Russian history.  I have found new sources and old books that I have been lucky enough to add to my collection.  (I am lucky also to be in a position to buy some of the expensive books that others have said they can't get right now.)

I have made new friends and found new contacts who have opened new (and old) doors for me.  I have had the pleasure of actually "speaking" to the authors whose books I collect and love. 


I have also made a few blunders and made myself look darn right stupid when talking to a knowledgeable and lettered individual and not knowing who he was  :( Fortunately in a pm he understood and "forgave me".  8)

We are all here to learn and to exchange ideasThe FA has a formidable job in keeping us all in line and making sure that the site remains a good place for all.  Just keeping track of the "suspended members" or "sock puppets" as he calls them must take all too much time away from his own enjoyment of the site and his own participation in the threads.

And I will now stop my ramblings and ask everyone to to please forgive me for this digression.

However, no matter how much research I keep doing, I don't see any indication that Nicholas would be involved in any way in the murder of Rasputin.  Even if he detested Rasputin personally, Nicholas loved Alexandra and Alexei.  As a loving parent myself, I can and do understand Nicholas putting up with the starets.

However, two good books to try to get your hands on are The Life and Times of Grigorii Rasputin by Alex DeJonge and The Murder of Rasputin "The truth about Prince Felix Youssoupov and the Mad Monk who helped bring down the Romanovs"  by Greg King.

Of course there are many many more sources out there including Spiridovitch who was actually there

And if you go to Amazon, you can sometimes find books at unbelievably low prices.  I just got Alexander II by Radzinsky for $0.98!!


« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 08:35:21 AM by Alixz »

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2007, 08:25:54 AM »
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.


how do you want me to prove to you where I live? In fact, I don't understand why I would want to give out my private information?
Come to think of it, how am I even supposed to prove to you that I don't live near him when I don't even know where he lives?

Easy, send me an email from a non-aol account using a non-aol access to the internet.  Since I know the area in question, and you say you don't then that gives me the answer I need without you revealing "personal" information.  Though, of course, if you truly had nothing to hide, you would have nothing to fear from revealing your personal identification to me, which of course, would remain private to me.  There are many dozens of users here, whose identity they have revealed to me privately, and not one of them has ever been "outed" to anyone else by me.

Frankly, you seem to "doth protest too much"...imo

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2007, 08:32:17 AM »
I know this is off the subject but the story about the rape being proved false.  Where was that mentioned three times?  I must not have "the proper research books".  Which book or source claims this did not take place?  You have made me curious and I would like to read up on it as I had never heard or read that story was false.  I apologize if I missed on this thread.  I try to read everything on the ones I'm

General Alexander Spiridovitch: "Raspoutine" and "Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour A Tzarskoje Selo".  I have already put up the citations and quotes in several other Rasputin discussion threads.   A lot of the "research" Charley could do would be to go READ the other Rasputin threads or other related threads first, as most of the questions asked have already been answered HERE in the Forum so the access is instant and FREE.

THAT is the crux of my frustration in the forum.  People keep asking the same questions over and over without READING the other threads in the forum.  Sorry if I get cross in my frustration, but don't forget that unlike you folks, I HAVE to read every posting every day....

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2007, 09:35:39 AM »
First of all - congratulations to Alixz for taking the mature, pragmatic view.   I hope others see the wisdom and follow in her footsteps.

Secondly, I heartily agree with FA.   All too often, posters are too quick to post.   They 'read' posts, but fail to pause and think about, or digest, what has been written.   As a result they simply react because, lets face it, all they are interested in is getting across their own point of view.   Its worth being mindful that others do have equally valid opinions and by reading others' posts, there is a lot to learn.   Otherwise the entire Forum will keep going round and round in circles AND   

It amazes me how this thread has managed to seep into seven pages.   Look and learn.

tsaria

PS:  Please forgive me, FA - I know I am one of the guilty ones.   I promise I will try to read and think before I write.

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2007, 02:36:32 PM »
I know this is off the subject but the story about the rape being proved false.  Where was that mentioned three times?  I must not have "the proper research books".  Which book or source claims this did not take place?  You have made me curious and I would like to read up on it as I had never heard or read that story was false.  I apologize if I missed on this thread.  I try to read everything on the ones I'm interested in but sometimes miss a few posts.

Also I wish everyone would get off Charlie's case about "doing her own research".  She has made is quite clear she is a newbie.  I am as well and although I have a pretty extensive collection and have read on the subject for many years obviously I do not have the depths of "knowledge" and resources that many of you have.  Some of the out of print books cost more than a hundred dollars if you can find them, also if you live in a smaller town they libraries just don't have a huge amount on this subject.  If Charlie is like me she is on the forum to enjoy the discussion and to learn more.  Is it really necessary to be so patronizing and make fun of her? 

To Charlie, I have to admit I enjoy your threads.  They sure seem to generate interesting discussions and seem to be popular as well based on the number of hits received.

No, FA means that he/she has told me three times not to ask questions. I must go and do the research myself and not ask questions here.  I assume that is what he/she meant. Why do other people get to ask questions and not me. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I just sense alot of hostility.
Yes, and I agree with Pegschalet, I would like to see the report that said it was false.  Don't say, "Charley, do your own research", because obviously, I shared my research and you say it is wrong, so now it's your turn, sister or brother. (I do not know your gender)  :)
Thanks for the support, Pegschalet, but it really doesn't bother me because, obviously, we are all bonded together, whether we like it or not, by our passion about anything related to the family. They have their strong opinions and I have mine. I think we can all respect that.

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2007, 03:22:16 PM »
I'm not saying don't ask questions. What I am saying is that you should READ the other threads on the subject before asking the questions. It is not hostility, its FRUSTRATION because your questions are actually answered in the other threads on the subject.

and your FA is a HE.

Rob


Offline FaithWhiteRose

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2007, 06:06:10 PM »
Nicholas would be to gentle to do that, if you ask me.

Alixz

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2007, 06:21:07 PM »
I only want to point out one more thing.

There are currently 8,392 topics and 253,417 posts about these topics on the AP Discussion Board.

I think that we all try to read and to find the answers before we ask questions, but that is one heck of a lot of ground to cover and while we are doing all that reading the numbers just keep growing.

I understand the frustration but I also understand the desire to just jump in and start a new thread and to just ask.

However, since this forum is used by educational groups (and I think that sometimes we forget that in our desire to prove ourselves right) we have to be careful what we post and how stubborn we get about our point of view.

That is why I and everyone else gets pounded about sources.  There are threads for "what if" speculation and also an "Alien Abduction" thread (which has now gone down and I miss it because it was so much fun ;D).  So when someone can't post a reliable source for what they have posed, then the whole world gets to take a look at the subject and may get the wrong idea.

Still, I know that as the years go by and more information is released from GARF that older books have become obsolete and stories like the "rape of the nursery maid" and the "prophecy of the collapse of the Russian aristocracy" which were believed in the past have now been proven to be false.

Sometimes it is hard to keep up with the new information and the changes that have taken place.  Heck, when I first read Guy Richards The Hunt for the Czar back in the1970s, I wanted it to be true.  But, of course, it isn't.

So we just have to keep on "keepin' on".  

FaithWhiteRose - I tend to agree with you.  I have never read anything anywhere that points to Nicholas being in any way involved in the death of Rasputin.  The only thing I said before is that he might have said something in an off hand way that someone like Dimitri or Felix or Zenaide misunderstood.  They may have thought they knew the intention behind his words, but just interpreted them incorrectly.  And that is just MHO!   :D

« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 06:22:51 PM by Alixz »

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2007, 06:23:44 PM »
Hello Alixz!
When you have time I would be really interested to hear about how Nicholas "plotted" to slant the election of the third Duma to get the right combination of delegates that he thought he could work with (or against). Maybe we should start a new thread on the subject (in order to avoid digressing, as this seems to have little to do with the subject under discussion here)??

I understand about storms....our house was struck (a direct hit!!) in July 2005....the two computers, a DVD player and a radio alarm clock were badly damaged...it was not a pleasant experience.