Author Topic: Rasputin & Nicholas  (Read 39738 times)

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Alixz

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2007, 06:31:57 PM »
Greenowl - you are absolutely right.  We should begin another thread about this subject.

But to continue what I was posting when I had to leave quickly - from The Court of the Last Tsar by Greg King.  page 44 -

"In 1907, in anticipation of the Third Duma, the emperor illegally altered the voting laws, to narrow the chances of socialists winning seats."

And then there is " both the First and Second Dumas were closed on Nicholas's orders and their deputies put into the street when they insisted on launching investigations into government sponsored pogroms."  Also on page 44.

So I will do some more looking and see if I can find any other signs of "plotting" and then we can start a new thread.  ;)

Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2007, 07:00:45 PM »
General Alexander Spiridovitch: "Raspoutine" and "Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour A Tzarskoje Selo. 


I'm not trying to be a pain.  I'm guessing these are two books by Spiridovitch which are in French.  Are there English translations available?  Or can you just refer me to the thread or posting?  I'm very interested in reading more on this subject.

I don't know if this should be a new thread or not.  Most of the books I have are old or reference some of the original books,  Lili Dehn, Sophie B, Anna V. written in the 20's.  Someone mentioned newer sources in this thread.  I would love to see a list.  Maybe a thread in the beginning of the Forum called "Recommended Reading".  I have been purchasing new books as they come out, "Fate of the Romanovs , The Camera and the Tsars, etc to keep current.

Again this is a question, not an attack.  What makes Spiridovitch a more reliable source?  Obviously there is a reason for this.  Again maybe a section by the FA or the other experts rating the different sources.  Some are easy to figure out like "Rescue of the Romanovs" which time and DNA has debunked but other are more difficult.  Edvard Radzinsky's books appeared very well researched to me with an extensive bibliography but I seen threads questioning his reliability.  So how are we to know?  Who do we rely on the published author who I hope was veted in some way or the poster who states that source has errors?   

I feel empathy towards the FA for feeling frustrated having to read every post.  Maybe you could rotate with somebody or have someone take a month at a time.  As someone else said there are over 200,000 posts on this site.  I know I'm not going to read everyone. 

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2007, 07:41:49 PM »
I'm not saying don't ask questions. What I am saying is that you should READ the other threads on the subject before asking the questions. It is not hostility, its FRUSTRATION because your questions are actually answered in the other threads on the subject.
and your FA is a HE.
Rob
Hi Rob,
 Thanks for clarifying that you are a guy. I understand your frustration about new people who do not read every and all the threads. I honestly looked on the search engine and could not find anything talking about the Tsar maybe involved in Rasputins death. I wondered about it after reading some sources, I just got a sense that things were different than they appeared in writing. Okay, I am a Newbie and I have thought about something. I come to this website and do I really need to read through every thread to find an anwer. I pity you that you have to, because I would not enjoy this site if I had to. I hope they pay you well. So, is the search engine reliable? Any suggestions other than reading every single post?

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2007, 08:04:32 PM »
 I just want people to think about what I am saying and not run out and say, no this is impossible.
The Tsars family are all totally against R.  Nicholas does not even mention him in his letters to his mother. (Secret Letters of the Tsar). They believe R is devastating the monarchy. Nicholas believes his family is trying to dethrone him. (As mentioned in Minnie's letter to him.) A very good justification for the Tsar to call for R's death would be to save face with his family and protect his throne. As far as I can see, the main reason the family was turning on Nicky was because of Rasputin.  Can you imagine the enormous stress this poor man must have been under, failing war, revolution, family on your back. I am in no way saying that Nicholas was a mass murderer and chopped R to pieces. The original plan to kill R was actually very humane. He would have some wine, fall asleep, and never wake up.  Poor threesome, everything fell apart. The big plan did not work the way it was supposed to, they panicked and it ended not so humanely.  That was not the plan, though.

Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #109 on: June 02, 2007, 08:20:27 PM »
Okay, I finally found the sources I had read on the rape.  In two different books, "A Lifelong Passion, Nicholas and Alexandra Their Own Story", and "The Rasputin File" by Radzinsky it is mentioned.  Both books refer to The Provisional Government's Extraordinary Commision of Enquiry, Petrograd 1917.  The commision interviewed the nanny Vishniakova, who in her own words stated she was raped.  She then told the Maid of Honor, S. I. Tiutcheva who then informed the Empress.  The Empress said she did not believe the story and forebade her to tell the Emperor.

I'm sorry I can't quote the sources from the top of my head or I would have brought this up earlier.  The reason Charlie mentioned this rape as regards this thread is.  "the Empress forebade her to tell the Emperor."  I think her point was if the Tsar was 100% on board with Rasputin why would Alix worry about Tiutcheva telling him.  If she was sure he felt that way she would not have worried knowing he would immediately discount the story.  What I found interesting as Radzinsky's book states, the Tsar told Tiutcheva that he did not believe her story but it seems to me he took actions after that which kept Rasputin from the children's wing.  I find that odd when he said he did not believe her story, obviously it caused some doubts for him.

In addition, both of the Tsar's sisters mention this incident in their diaries.  Xenia, received the story from S. D. Samarina, Alix's Lady-in-waiting.  It makes sense to me because in a situation like this women talk.  A servant would certainly talk to a trusted Lady-in-waiting asking advice especially with her concern for the children.  After her talk with the Empress, I could see Tiutcheva asking Samarins to speak with Xenia.  My interpretation was this wasn't ideal gossip but genuine concern for the safety of the children.

I guess this goes back to the question of sources.  Which one is more credible and why?  I prefer to read the diaries and the words of the people these events happened to rather than another book or person's view of what they experienced.  
"A Lifelong Passion" is one of my favorite books because of the diaries and sources it uses.  It is so interesting reading two or three sources view of the same event.  Also one of the authors, Sergei Mironenko is the Director of the State Archive of the Russian Federation.

Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #110 on: June 02, 2007, 08:27:41 PM »
oops!  After the Empress told Tiutcheve not to talk to the Emperor, she received a summons to speak to him.  She did not speak to him on her own but at the request of the Tsar.

My dang spelling, it idle gossip not ideal gossip.  I need to proof better.  Sorry.

Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2007, 05:27:53 PM »
I want to mention that I have been to the AP bookfinder which is a great resource.  Since I've been on the Forum, it seems like there is a special list of sources and only these are considered valid.  All others are inaccurate, debunked, not worth the paper printed on etc.  I would like to know what they are so I can read them for myself.  I plan to start another thread on this subject under Books as I know this thread is not the proper place for this discussion.

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2007, 07:09:59 AM »
I fail to understand how the subject of this thread remains active.

It is not the issues surrounding the murder of Grigory Efimovich which require examination - it is the character of Emperor Nicholas II.   Even an elementary understanding of the psyche of the man is sufficient to obviate any answer to this question.

Having said that, records appear to indicate that Nicholas was not altogether saddened to learn of the death of Rasputin.   However, this reference to the Tsar's reaction was no more than an objective observation.   How Nicholas really felt, nobody knows.

The only possibility could have been a Thomas Becket scenario, as already suggested.   However, there is no evidence to support this.

tsaria   

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2007, 04:30:02 PM »
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.


how do you want me to prove to you where I live? In fact, I don't understand why I would want to give out my private information?
Come to think of it, how am I even supposed to prove to you that I don't live near him when I don't even know where he lives?

Easy, send me an email from a non-aol account using a non-aol access to the internet.  Since I know the area in question, and you say you don't then that gives me the answer I need without you revealing "personal" information.  Though, of course, if you truly had nothing to hide, you would have nothing to fear from revealing your personal identification to me, which of course, would remain private to me.  There are many dozens of users here, whose identity they have revealed to me privately, and not one of them has ever been "outed" to anyone else by me.

Frankly, you seem to "doth protest too much"...imo
What I'm saying is that by going out of my way to make a new email account, get a new internet service so that you can have my private information, how am I to know you won't hack into my computer? Are any other users required to not use AOL? It dosen't make any sense. AOL is what I pay for, why would I not use it?

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2007, 04:54:36 PM »
Because I already know that you use the AOL servers for "bring your own" access, and not the aol dial up servers.  I know which bands are for which. Also, don't be RIDICULOUS to think that I could, would, or would even WANT to hack into your computer. How ludicrously paranoid. To be blunt, you don't sound, behave, write or act like a mother of a child as you claim.  But you DO write, sound, behave and act like Caleb Granger and his many alias names.

If you prove yourself NOT to be that person, I will gladly and immediately issue you a public apology. Again, methinks she doth protest too much. Any other time I've had this problem, the individuals who were "legit" understood my need to protect the integrity of the Forum and gladly and willingly assisted me, while you?? well.....that alone give me reason.

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #115 on: June 04, 2007, 07:35:23 PM »
I fail to understand how the subject of this thread remains active.
It is not the issues surrounding the murder of Grigory Efimovich which require examination - it is the character of Emperor Nicholas II.   Even an elementary understanding of the psyche of the man is sufficient to obviate any answer to this question.
 
First of all, people are interested in any and all aspects of the life of the IF. We want to think about them as real people, not storybook characters. I am interested in this and apparently a few others are.
I think Nicholas was a very complex man. I think it takes alot more than an "elementary understanding" to even begin to delve into the pysche of this great man.
He told his family, "I do not permit anyone to give me advice." He didn't preface it with, "aside from Father Gregori." Did he mean it or not?
Also, did the comment, "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" only refer to King Henry or is there a record of the Tsar ever saying those words or similar?

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2007, 08:10:26 PM »
Bob has made his position clear and without argument. Should "Martyr" Caleb Granger refuse to provide some outside confirmation to prove you are NOT Caleb Granger, be it a phone number, valid non aol email or whatever, your account will be deleted. This is not subject to debate. per Bob.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #117 on: June 04, 2007, 08:12:34 PM »
Nikolai II had absolutely nothing to do with the instigation nor can he be accused of contributing in any way to the cold blooded murder of Rasputin.

This very idea is preposterous!

Margarita
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Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #118 on: June 04, 2007, 10:26:05 PM »
There are alot of sources which discuss the night Rasputin died but the one source we don't have is Dmitri's account(as far as I know).  I always wondered if there was more to this story because he never spoke of it and he had the falling out with Felix.  It just seems like there is a piece missing here.  Not necessarily the Tsar's involvement but more to the story.

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2007, 08:43:04 AM »
There are many pieces missing, and Felix's account is nearly useless for any accurate information. Please see the thread "Rasputin's Murder", where Richard Cullen shares his extraordinary forensic analysis of the murder itself, which is wholly at odds with the Yussupov and Pourishkevich accounts.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1365.0.html