Author Topic: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children  (Read 172636 times)

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RobMoshein

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2004, 09:47:09 AM »
Spiridovitch reports ("Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour de Tzarskoie Selo" Vol 1 Ch. 14) the fact that Maria Pavlovna was very worried about the fact that she was not Orthodox at the time her children were born created a serious legal obstacle to their succession to the throne. Alexander II gave his SON his succession rights in writing when Vladimir married the Lutheran Maria P., but said nothing about the rights of any children they had. So there was a legitimate question of succession.

According to Spiridovitch, everyone knew that when Maria P. converted to Orthodoxy in 1908, it was only to try to prevent the issue from coming up. One of her sons (Spiridovitch did not name him, probably because he was still alive at the time) went to the Minister of Justice, Chtcheglov, for a legal report on the question.  The report concluded that her late conversion to Orthodoxy could not retroactively change the fact that they were born to a non-Orthodox mother and were thus excluded from succession to the throne.   A copy of the report was actually submitted to the Emperor and so everyone knew they had no succession rights. This of course, only made Empress Alexandra even colder towards her than she already was. After the death of Vladimir, a copy of the report was brought to Maria Pavlovna and her sons.  While they had no succession rights (from being born to a non Orthodox mother), they still had precedance rights, as grandsons of an Emperor (thanks Nick!), which would explain why they were still listed in the Court Almanach and Calendar....

This could explain a lot of things. Like why Marie Feodrovna never recognized Kyrill's rights. Or even why Kyrill turned on Nicholas II so quickly... perhaps even why the Bolsheviks did not kill them when they wiped out the rest of the family.  I would LOVE to know if a copy of the report could be found in GARF. (unless maybe Maria made a deal to have it destroyed when she met Yeltsin??)
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Offline jackie3

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2004, 03:28:44 PM »
Um, hi, I'm new.

Does anyone know what GD Meichen thought she would gain by getting her son Boris to Olga N.? I'm assuming of course (based on all I've read on him which isn't a lot) that it wasn't Boris' idea and I sincerely doubt he loved Olga. Miechen had to know how Alexandra felt about it, that Olga had much more better prospects than a profligate cousin many years older than her who she hadn't had a lot of contact with and that Olga herself, considering her intelligence and the morals Alix raised her in would probably refuse herself even if Alix didn't say anything. Were the Vladomirovichi hedging their bets in case Alexis was able to survive to take the throne and they wanted an "in" with him via his sister? Perhaps they thought if push came to shove Nicholas would push them out and open the succession to daughters (disregarding Tsar Paul's House Laws) which would make Olga, not Michael, heir presumptive after her brother. Otherwise the proposal doesn't make sense.

Has for GD Cyril, I really have nothing but contempt for him. He abandoned the family when the children were sick to pledge himselfand his troops, red flag and all to the Prov. Govt.  Even if Nicholas had abdicated, based on his own oath to the Tsar, Cyril should have stayed to protect Alexis (since from what I understand there is some doubt whether Nicholas could have abstained for him). Then when the family was still only "presumed" dead (bodies never being found), the traitor and his wife styled themselves as "Majesty". It's a wonder all the Romanovs didn't just turn their backs on him.

I know many Russian Monarchists support his granddaughter GD Maria as the present Head of the House (the other Romanovs see it differently) but does anyone know if she has addressed her grandfather's behavior during the Revolution? There are still many French Legitimiste monarchists who still refuse to accept the House of Orleans because of the stain of Phillipe Egalite and what he did to HIS cousin during that revolution.

Offline Lanie

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2004, 04:51:32 PM »
Speaking of the whole situation about Boris proposing to Olga--do we know anything more about it, other than Alix's comments in that one letter to Nicholas?

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2004, 06:37:42 PM »
According to the Memoirs of General Wrangel in January 1917 Grand Duchess Victoria Melita came to him in Romania and he reports....

"The Grand Duchess gave us to understand that the majority of the members of the Imperial Family, especially the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (mother of the Grand Duke Cyril) considered it necessary to modify the existing order of things, and that many influential members of the Duma shared this view."

"This long interview with the Grand Duchess left a painful impression on my mind.  I met her many times in Petersburg, but I had never been one of her circle.  Her desire to see me, and the confidences with which she had honored me, seemed a trifle unusual."

"Subsequent events, and the part that the Grand Duke Cyril played at the head of the "revolutionary" Marines-of-the-Guard in the first days of the Revolution perhaps explain many things".

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2004, 08:07:18 PM »
Rob - with all due respect, Spidirovitch may have been a Russian, but he apparently was not familiar with the Fundamental Law of the Russian Empire. Kirill's succession rights were never in question - as evidenced by his appearence in court circulars as a member of the dynasty until they stopped being published.

Maria Pavlovna was permitted by her father in law to continue practicing her religion because at the time, the male line of Alexander III appeared very strong with 3 living sons, and it seemed unlikely her children would ever succeed to the throne.

However, due to George Alexandrovich's early death and the family's failure to marry off Michael properly, and most importantly, Alexandra's birthing so many daughters, by the time a sickly Alexis was born - with no more children coming - all of this changed. It was at this time that Maria P converted, but it wasn't to gain her three sons the succession rights they already had. Rather, it was a smart political move on her part to ensure when her sons did become heirs, there would be no questions as to her religion. Of course, I don't think even she envisioned the situation that elevated them to that status.


Offline Louise

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2004, 07:44:32 PM »
I was just reading about Bridal Choices and how first cousins are forbidden by the Russian Orthodox Church to marry. How did Kyril and Ducky get passed this law. What was the reaction of Vladimir and his wife and the Duchess of Edinburgh?

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Offline JM

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2004, 09:00:35 PM »
Vladimir and his wife were more outraged at Kyril's punishment than at his marriage. That is all I know. :-[

BTW, did the Tsar ever officially condone Kyril and Ducky's marriage?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2004, 10:46:01 PM »
This topic is often discussed in alt.talk.royalty (man, there are experts there on this and the ensuing succession issue). It's my understanding that after quite a few years, the Tsar eventually "forgave" (if that's the same as official condoning) Kyril and allowed him and Victoria to return from their exile and his rank, etc...was returned to him. Re: the succession of their descendants to the "throne" this issue of official recognition comes up as well as the first cousin issue and the fact that Victoria Melita didn't convert right away. The irony being that they returned not too long before WW1--they probably would've been better off staying in exile. As for the Duchess of Coburg, I don't have any hard evidence but since she adamantly opposed and eventually scuttled the romance of her daughter Beatrice and Nicholas II's brother Michael on just those reasons (1st cousins), I can't imagine she was too thrilled, especially with the ensuing scandal. However, I also imagine that as fierce as she was she didn't take too well to the punishment that was meted out to her daughter.
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Offline Namarolf

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2004, 10:49:42 PM »
Is there any record about N & A's behaviour to Kiril V. and Victoria F.'s daughters?

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2004, 11:03:15 AM »
We have just found confirmation of the Tchcheglovitov report in the Diaries of V. M. Purishkevitch , Right wing Duma member and part of the murder of Rasputin:

26 November 1916: (snip) I feel that the Valdimiroviches, and their mother, while remaining inherently foreign and germanophobic, do not only harm to our army at the front, but constantly intrigue against the Sovereign ( which they try to disguise with high flown talk about the good of Russia).
They have never given up their hope that the throne of Russia would one day revert to their line. I can't help but remember the story told by Ivan Grigorievich Tchchelgovitov, of how, when he was Minister of Justice, Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich came up to him one day to have him elucidate the question: did they, the Vladimiroviches, have the right according to the laws of the Russian Empire, to succed to the throne, and if not, why not?
Tchcheglovitov, who after this talk with the Grand Duke Boris, became the subject of their cruel hatred, received from them the nickname of Vanka Cain (an anti-Semitic slur), explained to the Grand Duke that they had no right to the succession because the Grand Duchess Marya Pavlovna, their mother, had remained a Lutheran after her marriage.  Boris went off disappointed, but some time later he put at Tchcheglovitov's disposal a document which made it clear that Marya Pavlovna had ceased being a Lutheran and had become a member of the Orthodox Church...

V.M. Purishkevich, The Murder of Rasputin, Edited by Michael E. Shaw, 1985 Ardis Publishers. ISBN 0-88233-931-1. pg 87-88.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2004, 09:00:34 PM »
Quote
In between the time that VM & GD Kyril married and the Tsar reinstated Kyril's rights and rank & sanctioned the marriage, what was she known as? She couldn't technically be called "GDss Kyril" as she was later known--does anyone know what it was in those few years?



Actually, I've managed to answer my own question! While I was looking through books for Tatiana's godparents, I came across this notation:

KR, Diary 23 July 1907
.....On the 15th July, 'acceding to the request of Vladimir', as it was put in the Senate ukaz, the Emperor recognized Kyril's wedding; his wife is to be known as the Grand Duchess Victoria, and their daughter recognized as a princess of the imperial blood. How strange it all is! What does it have to do with Vladimir's request? How can that request legitimize that, which is not legal? After all, Kyril married his first cousin, which is not allowed by the church. It's even stranger since before, Kyril's wife was known as the Princess Kyrillovsky, signifying that she was a person, with whom Kyril had entered into a morganatic marriage. Kyril refused that title and insisted on his own. His wife is now a grand duchess.
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2004, 03:35:39 AM »
Quote


Actually, I've managed to answer my own question! While I was looking through books for Tatiana's godparents, I came across this notation:

KR, Diary 23 July 1907
.....On the 15th July, 'acceding to the request of Vladimir', as it was put in the Senate ukaz, the Emperor recognized Kyril's wedding; his wife is to be known as the Grand Duchess Victoria, and their daughter recognized as a princess of the imperial blood. How strange it all is! What does it have to do with Vladimir's request? How can that request legitimize that, which is not legal? After all, Kyril married his first cousin, which is not allowed by the church. It's even stranger since before, Kyril's wife was known as the Princess Kyrillovsky, signifying that she was a person, with whom Kyril had entered into a morganatic marriage. Kyril refused that title and insisted on his own. His wife is now a grand duchess.


I've seen some of the letters on this in private Romanov hands, and while it's true that the title "Princess Kirillovsky" was bandied about by someone (I've never seen by whom) it would have been wrong-and KR is clearly wrong in thinking it would be correct and that it signified a morganatic marriage.  Whatever the objections to Kirill and Ducky's marriage, it wasn't morganatic by any stretch of the imagination-that term signifies marriage to a person of unequal rank, which Ducky most definitely was not.

I'll save my other arguments for the "Who is the rightful heir" thread.

Greg King

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2004, 03:51:42 PM »
Quote

I've seen some of the letters on this in private Romanov hands, and while it's true that the title "Princess Kirillovsky" was bandied about by someone (I've never seen by whom) it would have been wrong-and KR is clearly wrong in thinking it would be correct and that it signified a morganatic marriage.  Whatever the objections to Kirill and Ducky's marriage, it wasn't morganatic by any stretch of the imagination-that term signifies marriage to a person of unequal rank, which Ducky most definitely was not.

I'll save my other arguments for the "Who is the rightful heir" thread.

Greg King


OK, sigh, back to the drawing board. I thought that answered the question. I mean, she must've been called SOMETHING back then. If Kyril wasn't a Grand Duke anymore, Princess Kyril? Just Princess Victoria?
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Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2004, 10:05:30 AM »
Actually, I think KR was being kind by allowing Ducky the title of "Princess Kirillovsky".  Since Kirill had been stripped of his Grand Ducal title, Victoria Melita was technically "Mrs. Romanov."  Hard to swallow for some, but true.  Once his titles were restored, she became Grand Duchess.   The problem was never that the marriage was morganatic, it was that the Emperor refused to recognize it as head of the Church.

Greg, can't wait to hop onto the other string with you, and get down and dirty about Maria Pavlovna the elder!

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Offline rjt

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2004, 11:46:44 PM »
Re Victoria Melita & Kyrill from http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Princess_Victoria_Melita_of_Saxe-Coburg-Gotha

The last two years of her second marriage were colored by some sort of revelation about her husband Cyril’s sexual life. “There has been speculation that Kirill was involved in behavior or relationships far more sensational and unorthodox than a simple and casual affair with another woman.”

Ducky died following a stroke.


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