Author Topic: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children  (Read 173237 times)

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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2005, 09:23:42 PM »
Odd as it seems because I think Kyril pretty unlikable I think she genuinely loved him. She certainly looks softer in many photos of them (at least early on before exile) than she ever did with Ernie. Russia was certainly an attraction though. However, they knew what would come down on their heads by marrying and finally just went ahead and did it even though it meant banishment. To spend years waiting to marry and then being willing to risk the punishment I think says something. Plus the fact that Ducky was just as committed to him in exile. It wasn't until whatever it was he did to break her heart that she turned from him. To be that brokenhearted (and Missy's left quite a portrait of it) there had to be some serious feelings there. Now I don't see the appeal of him in looks or personality but I don't doubt that she did.
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Offline TampaBay

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2005, 09:29:38 AM »
No doubt Cyril loved Ducky.  From the day she died until he died he always carried two things in his wallet:

1.  Her Picture at the time of their marriage.

2.  The telegram making her a Russian Grand Duchess & acepting her into the Rusaian Imperila Family.  

This telegram was their "permission slip" to return to Russia and live in full Imperial splendor.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TampaBay »
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Offline wittykitty

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2005, 02:17:40 PM »
Hi,

Does anybody have any information on GD's  activity during the war? In a book by Sullivan  "Fatal Passion" he alleges she was on the front with Kyrill and had started a ambulance service for the russian soldiers and helped to bring supplies to her sister Queen Marie.
I have looked thru books about on other family members that I own and books in the  NYC library on the russian family and  I can't find any refrence except
one small sentence in a book on Empress Alexandra diary  " Ducky and her mother in law GD Vladamir (Michen) were on a sanitary (shower) train. No mention of her helping Alix and the girls with hospitals or even in the book no picure of her in a Red Cross Uniform. The Dowanger Empress was in charge of the Red Cross and I can't find a refrence in her bio of Ducky's major feat. In the bio of her sister Queen Marie there is no mention and the sisters were close why leave it out ? It's just one of the things that bug me about the book.
Wittykitty  :-/

Offline Rosamund

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2005, 04:16:49 PM »
I found this in 'Queen Victoria's Relations' by Meriel Buchanan.

'The Grand Duchess Cyril had her own ambulance-train during the war.  She travelled continually backwards and forwards to the Front, returning sometimes looking worn and harassed, her eyes heavy with lack of sleep and overpowering weariness.  She was acutely aware of the lack of organisation in the conduct of the war; she had seen the appalling shortage of ammunition, the scarcity of supplies and Red-Cross material.'

Meriel Buchanan goes on to say that the Grand Duchess blamed the Empress for the mismanagement in the administration in the country.  When she approached the latter she was told that these matters were not her concern.  Ducky felt that Alix had treated her like an ignorant schoolgirl.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2005, 05:35:02 PM »
From A Fatal Passion

'One of the most important aspects of these preparations was the organization of a large and efficient ambulance service. Almost all of the traditional relief organizations in Russia, such as the hospitals and the Red Cross, were financed and supported by the imperial family...Ducky was one of the first to put together a modern ambulance outfit...before long Ducky found herself the head of a huge mobile health-care system. She 'threw herself wholeheartedly into nursing and her motorized ambulance unit was one of the most efficiently run services in Russia.' 'The task which she undertook required hard work and great thoroughness to make it function smoothly in the changing and difficult circumstances...' [wrote Kyril] 'She helped in making her motorized ambulance work one of the best run auxiliary services in Russia. It worked with great regularity and was absolutely reliable, at a time when these characteristics, owing to our total unpreparedness, were, alas, conspicuously lacking in manyh of the various branches of our armies....Unlike many others who were playing at Red Cross nurses [this seems a slam at Alexandra--tacky  :( ] she had chosen hard and practical work, and on several occasions had carried out her duties under the enemy's fire.'

At the front, near Warsaw, Ducky regularly visited the battle lines...everywhere she went, she won praise. When her Red Cross train arrived at the supreme commander's headquarters at the front, General Kodzerovsky watched her with admiration, remarking that he was 'quite impressed by her energetic looks.'

The carnage kept Ducky constantly busy...Ducky worked day and night among the wounded and the dead. The ordeal proved perfectly designed for her iron will and courageous character. She toiled without reluctance or complaint."
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Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2005, 06:15:21 AM »
Well, I am not a fan of GD Kirill either. I read his book of memoirs and found it a boring one.
But I was really amazed to see this photo of Kirill !



Does anyone know an exact date of the photo? Kirill looks very young.

Offline Frederika

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2005, 04:24:27 AM »
why did viktoria melita die so young?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frederika »

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2005, 05:40:13 AM »
While she was attending the birth of her grandchild in Germany, she suffered a stroke and never recovered - dying 12 days later.

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2005, 09:10:49 PM »
I disagree that he committed "treason".  Nicholas and Alexandra pretty much destroyed the monarchy by their bizarre behavior and the war.  Cyrill wrote extensively and discussed equally extensively his concerns, as did most of his relatives.  He may not have been the greatest guy in the world, but the argument can be made that he made mindful choices in a difficult situation.  

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2005, 11:26:47 PM »
Quote
As commander of the Garde Equipage, the marines guarding the Alexander Palace at the time of the revolution, he and they were the almost sole protectors of the tsarina and her children who were ill with the measles. Instead of being true to the family and his oath, Cyril ordered the marines to march away from the palace and march to Petrograd, leaving the palace and family virtually unguarded.


If the Emperor Nicholas II had already abdicated at the time Grand Duke Kyril moved his troops then he broke no loyalty oath. The loyalty oath was unilaterally and legally terminated when the Emperor signed the instrument of abdication. Did GD Kyril have a moral obligation to protect the former Emperor's family, probably so but the way in which the rest of the IF had been treated by the Empress made this moral obligation hard to stomach. Keep in mind that GD Kyril had a pregnant wife and two children in the city, a place where they were more likely to face an angry crowd than the Empress and her children in the countryside. I am sure that he decided to ensure that his family was safe.

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Offline miller99

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2005, 04:59:23 AM »
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Spiridovitch reports ("Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour de Tzarskoie Selo" Vol 1 Ch. 14) the fact that Maria Pavlovna was very worried about the fact that she was not Orthodox at the time her children were born created a serious legal obstacle to their succession to the throne. Alexander II gave his SON his succession rights in writing when Vladimir married the Lutheran Maria P., but said nothing about the rights of any children they had. So there was a legitimate question of succession."

This is always a misnomer when it comes to the succession and Orthodoxy.  The Fundamental laws include statements for succession and marriage.  There are no laws that exclude the issue of non-Orthodox marriages. (Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right to the throne when she married.  Her mother never converted to Orthodoxy.)   What is clear is that the Heir (and spouse) have to be orthodox.  But there is nothing in the laws that say the issue of a non-Orthodox wife are excluded.  The laws do provide regulations for approved marriages.  Alexander II approved the marriage of his son Wladimir to Marie of Mecklenburg (who came from a ruling house.)  Neither Wladimir or Kirill were removed from the list of members of the Imperial family in the Court Calendar.  This inclusion was an inherent right of succession to the throne.

The two clauses 184, and 185, are about the religion of the children of the marriage, not the member of the house who made the marriage.   After the train crash at Borki that nearly killed Alexander III and his family,  a commission was set up to discuss, among other things, the succession, and it was pointed out at that time that Wladimir did retain rights and his children were not excluded despite the fact that Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox until 1908.   There are discussions about this is AA Polovtsov's diary - he was the state secretary.  If Wladimir's children were not dynasts, they would not have been listed as members of the Imperial family.  Membership in the family also meant succession rights.

184 states "with the permission of the emperor, members of the Imperial House may enter into marriage with persons of the Orthodox faith and with persons of other denominations," while 1985 stated  "the marriage of a male dynast of the imperial house who might succeed to the throne may not take place until she has embraced orthodoxy."  This requirement was largely reserved for the Heir apparent, not for other members of the family who were not close to the throne.  Wladimir and Konstantin married Lutherans.  But both marriages were approved, and their children had rights. If Alexis had been healthy - and Grand Duke Michael not cavorting with unsuitable women, Marie Pavlovna would probably have not converted.  But by the time she joined the church, the family knew that Alexis was not healthy, that Alix would probably not have further issue, and Grand Duke Michael was not going to marry equally.

The Orthodox church forbids marriages between first cousins.  The church also forbids marriages between second cousins and between third cousins.  For the Imperial Family that dictum was a bit too confining - as there are second cousin marriages.  Kirill and Victoria Melita's marriage was not originally approved by the Tsar, as defined by the FUndamental Laws.  However, they were married in an Orthodox ceremony (despite being first cousins, and Nicholas did eventually recognize the marriage and ordered that Victoria be styled as Grand Duchess. She was permitted to retain her first name -- contrary to several biographers, Ducky and Alix were not bitter enemies.  She converted to Orthodoxy before Maria was born -- and after Maria's birth, Nicholas ordered that Maria be listed in the family book - which according to another fundamental law, defined membership in the Imperial House.   The fundamental laws did not include a provision for membership in the imperial house without succession rights.

As I stated above, Princess Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right of succession when she married ... and Nicholas refers to this right in the official document of her renouncement.  Her mother was Lutheran.

The Bolsheviks were not in power when Kerensky made arrangements for Kirill and Ducky to leave, although they left separately, and it was not easy.  They did not live in luxury when in Finland.  IN fact, life was harsh for the couple and their three children, as Ducky was pregnant when they left for Finland in JUne 1917.

Is it entirely possible that Maria Feodorovna did not recognize Kirill as head of the house because she did not want to accept that her son and grandson were dead.    It makes perfect sense that Minnie would not have accepted anyone as heir because she wanted to believe that Nicholas and Alexis were alive.  By recognizing Kirill, Minnie would have accepted that her son and his family were dead.  That would have been too much to ask ... yet her son-in-law, Alexander, makes it clear that Kirill was the head of the family, and he was not alone in that judgment.  Nearly all the surviving members of the Imperial family acknowledged Kirill, and later Wladimir - witness the official statements/documents of 1924 and 1938.

Nicholas Romanov has never disputed the succession of Kirill nor Wladimir, actually (and Nicholas does not have dynastic rights because he was born of a morganatic marriage.



You are so naive :D

of course Nicholas  have dynastic rights because he is a member of House Holstein-Gottorp, a prince of Holstein-Gottorp.  


Offline Macedonsky

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2005, 11:46:39 AM »
Quote
of course Nicholas  have dynastic rights because he is a member of House Holstein-Gottorp, a prince of Holstein-Gottorp.

Dear Miller99,

I read your 32 posts and disagree with your naive attempts to abolish the succession laws of the Russian Empire. To be Russian dynast it is not enough to be born from 'a prince of Holstein-Gottorp'. Not all male line descendants of Duke Paul of Holstein-Gottorp are members of the Russian Imperial House.

It is more complex. :D

Offline miller99

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2005, 05:50:28 PM »
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Dear Miller99,

I read your 32 posts and disagree with your naive attempts to abolish the succession laws of the Russian Empire. To be Russian dynast it is not enough to be born from 'a prince of Holstein-Gottorp'. Not all male line descendants of Duke Paul of Holstein-Gottorp are members of the Russian Imperial House.

It is more complex. :D


Yee, I think that "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore. But House of Holstein- Gottorp exist, because many of princes of Holstein-Gottorp were married to wifes who were not a equal in 17 and 18 century and they  don`t lost his rights as a members/ successors in Holstein -Gottorp House. The  Russian Imperial House Law is the  Russian Imperial House Law only, not  Law of Holstein -Gottorp House.


And of course - if "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore, the Holstein - Gottorp family is a successor of  "the Russian Imperial House".

Offline Macedonsky

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2005, 05:06:12 AM »
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Yee, I think that "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore. But House of Holstein- Gottorp exist, because many of princes of Holstein-Gottorp were married to wifes who were not a equal in 17 and 18 century and they  don`t lost his rights as a members/ successors in Holstein -Gottorp House. The  Russian Imperial House Law is the  Russian Imperial House Law only, not  Law of Holstein -Gottorp House.

I disagree with you. I can say that Russian Imperial House still exist in contrast with House of Holstein-Gottorp. As we all know Duke Paul exchanged his Holstein posessions onto Oldenburg. And he ceded Oldenburg. Thus "House of Holstein-Gottorp" became only historical name and part of the titles of the Russian Emperor (even not of any other Russian dynast).

Quote
And of course - if "the Russian Imperial House" don`t exist anymore, the Holstein - Gottorp family is a successor of  "the Russian Imperial House".

Of course? Who say this to you?

Offline LenelorMiksi

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2005, 01:15:20 AM »
I'm curious about Ducky and Kyrill's oldest daughter.  I see a lot of photos of Kira, but I've only seen two of Mariya as an adult.  I know she was born in 1907 and married Duke Karl of Leiningen in 1925 in Coburg, of all places.  Then they had 7, yes that's right, 7 children.  Anybody have more insight?
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