Author Topic: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children  (Read 173172 times)

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Alicky1872

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2005, 03:58:05 PM »
In his book on Ducky, John Van Der Kiste talks about something that Kirill did that hurt Ducky so much, she could never forgive him again, even till her dying day. Ducky's sister Marie of Romania brought up this mysterious subject in letters, stating how Ducky was a changed woman, and could never trust men again, or something to that effect. Van Der Kiste hints that Kirill possibly had a homosexual affair, and it may have brought on memories of Ernie's alleged exploits...

What are your thoughts?

Offline Angie_H

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2005, 04:00:06 PM »
I thought Kirill had affairs with other women? Maybe that is why she was so changed? Ducky did sacrifice alot to marry the man she loved and his having affairs must have been a big blow to her

Alicky1872

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2005, 04:06:49 PM »
I don't know, it seems like it had to be something BIG to change her so much. Realistically, she must have known about the Romanov men's love of women. In that era it was pratically the norm for Royal men to have affairs, so she would have been brought up to "sweep things under the rug" so to speak.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2005, 08:07:30 PM »
Some have speculated it could've been an affair. She didn't really love Ernie so his affairs wouldn't have mad her so mad or hurt. Kyril, whom she'd braved much to be with--divorce, censure, marrying in defiance of the Tsar--and having only their family basically left after the Revolution, it could've felt like a HUGE betrayal to someone who'd lost so much already.
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Offline Martyn

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2005, 05:11:18 AM »
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Some have speculated it could've been an affair. She didn't really love Ernie so his affairs wouldn't have mad her so mad or hurt. Kyril, whom she'd braved much to be with--divorce, censure, marrying in defiance of the Tsar--and having only their family basically left after the Revolution, it could've felt like a HUGE betrayal to someone who'd lost so much already.


That seems like the most sensible suggestion.  Ducky really staked everything on Kyril and whatever it was that he did, it hurt her very much.  I'm inclined to think that Ducky's passions were intense and that she really did love Kyril.  That they stayed married must say something;after all she had braved the censure and ostracism of divorce before and by the twenties and thirties it was no longer the cause celebre that it had been in the early part of the century....
I am surprised that there aren't more rumours about Kyril, after all his brothers' love of the ladies was legendary.....
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Offline Marlene

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 02:58:28 PM »
Ducky was deeply hurt when she learned that her husband was involved in a long term affair - although the family never talked about it publicly.  But it put a damper on family life.  Queen Marie of Romania alluded to the affair - as did Infanta Beatrice (one of my special favorites).  

Frankly, she was devastated by the revelation.
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Offline QueenEna1887

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2005, 12:47:11 PM »
From what a close friend of mine John Kendrick has told me, that Cyril was a hypocrite. He broke his oath to the Czar during the Russian Revolution when he gave him the title of Head of the Palace Guards to watch over the Czar's wife and children. He abandoned his post and marched with the other troops during the revolution. What he committed was treason which could have caused him death for defying a Czar. Anyways his mother Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the elder did not like the Czar or his wife and tried to plan a nasty plot on the Czar in 1916 to get Cyril on the throne. Anyways after a London Court in 1924 proved that the Czar's brother Michael was dead he had the nerve to call himself " Czar of Russia-in-exile" What a loser!!

Offline JonC

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2005, 03:12:02 PM »
Hi, I know its a bit off topic...but, what proof did the court see in 1924 concerning the death of GD Michael?

Offline QueenEna1887

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2005, 08:57:31 PM »
London Courts proved that Michael was murdered which was in fact true. For years the Grand Duke went missing after he abdicated!!!

Offline Marlene

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2005, 10:01:48 PM »
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Spiridovitch reports ("Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour de Tzarskoie Selo" Vol 1 Ch. 14) the fact that Maria Pavlovna was very worried about the fact that she was not Orthodox at the time her children were born created a serious legal obstacle to their succession to the throne. Alexander II gave his SON his succession rights in writing when Vladimir married the Lutheran Maria P., but said nothing about the rights of any children they had. So there was a legitimate question of succession."

This is always a misnomer when it comes to the succession and Orthodoxy.  The Fundamental laws include statements for succession and marriage.  There are no laws that exclude the issue of non-Orthodox marriages. (Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right to the throne when she married.  Her mother never converted to Orthodoxy.)   What is clear is that the Heir (and spouse) have to be orthodox.  But there is nothing in the laws that say the issue of a non-Orthodox wife are excluded.  The laws do provide regulations for approved marriages.  Alexander II approved the marriage of his son Wladimir to Marie of Mecklenburg (who came from a ruling house.)  Neither Wladimir or Kirill were removed from the list of members of the Imperial family in the Court Calendar.  This inclusion was an inherent right of succession to the throne.

The two clauses 184, and 185, are about the religion of the children of the marriage, not the member of the house who made the marriage.   After the train crash at Borki that nearly killed Alexander III and his family,  a commission was set up to discuss, among other things, the succession, and it was pointed out at that time that Wladimir did retain rights and his children were not excluded despite the fact that Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox until 1908.   There are discussions about this is AA Polovtsov's diary - he was the state secretary.  If Wladimir's children were not dynasts, they would not have been listed as members of the Imperial family.  Membership in the family also meant succession rights.

184 states "with the permission of the emperor, members of the Imperial House may enter into marriage with persons of the Orthodox faith and with persons of other denominations," while 1985 stated  "the marriage of a male dynast of the imperial house who might succeed to the throne may not take place until she has embraced orthodoxy."  This requirement was largely reserved for the Heir apparent, not for other members of the family who were not close to the throne.  Wladimir and Konstantin married Lutherans.  But both marriages were approved, and their children had rights. If Alexis had been healthy - and Grand Duke Michael not cavorting with unsuitable women, Marie Pavlovna would probably have not converted.  But by the time she joined the church, the family knew that Alexis was not healthy, that Alix would probably not have further issue, and Grand Duke Michael was not going to marry equally.

The Orthodox church forbids marriages between first cousins.  The church also forbids marriages between second cousins and between third cousins.  For the Imperial Family that dictum was a bit too confining - as there are second cousin marriages.  Kirill and Victoria Melita's marriage was not originally approved by the Tsar, as defined by the FUndamental Laws.  However, they were married in an Orthodox ceremony (despite being first cousins, and Nicholas did eventually recognize the marriage and ordered that Victoria be styled as Grand Duchess. She was permitted to retain her first name -- contrary to several biographers, Ducky and Alix were not bitter enemies.  She converted to Orthodoxy before Maria was born -- and after Maria's birth, Nicholas ordered that Maria be listed in the family book - which according to another fundamental law, defined membership in the Imperial House.   The fundamental laws did not include a provision for membership in the imperial house without succession rights.

As I stated above, Princess Tatiana Constantinova renounced her right of succession when she married ... and Nicholas refers to this right in the official document of her renouncement.  Her mother was Lutheran.

The Bolsheviks were not in power when Kerensky made arrangements for Kirill and Ducky to leave, although they left separately, and it was not easy.  They did not live in luxury when in Finland.  IN fact, life was harsh for the couple and their three children, as Ducky was pregnant when they left for Finland in JUne 1917.

Is it entirely possible that Maria Feodorovna did not recognize Kirill as head of the house because she did not want to accept that her son and grandson were dead.    It makes perfect sense that Minnie would not have accepted anyone as heir because she wanted to believe that Nicholas and Alexis were alive.  By recognizing Kirill, Minnie would have accepted that her son and his family were dead.  That would have been too much to ask ... yet her son-in-law, Alexander, makes it clear that Kirill was the head of the family, and he was not alone in that judgment.  Nearly all the surviving members of the Imperial family acknowledged Kirill, and later Wladimir - witness the official statements/documents of 1924 and 1938.

Nicholas Romanov has never disputed the succession of Kirill nor Wladimir, actually (and Nicholas does not have dynastic rights because he was born of a morganatic marriage.

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Offline Frederika

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2005, 03:38:26 AM »
Did Victoria Melieta's husmand make him self Tzar after the revalution so was she ever a bogas Tzarina she died at 60 so did she ever live to see it? :P

Offline Annushka

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2005, 11:38:09 AM »
I'm not sure that it was bogus.  Kirill was the next surviving male Romanov and would have ascended to the throne of Russia if something had happened to Nicky, Alexei and Michael.  And after the revolution all three were dead (whether or not Maria Feodorovna would admit it) so Kirill wasnext in line to inherit the throne.

He was Tsar in exile.

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Offline ashanti01

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2005, 08:41:54 PM »
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I'm not sure that it was bogus.  Kirill was the next surviving male Romanov and would have ascended to the throne of Russia if something had happened to Nicky, Alexei and Michael.  And after the revolution all three were dead (whether or not Maria Feodorovna would admit it) so Kirill wasnext in line to inherit the throne.

He was Tsar in exile.

Holly


That is true but I do believe he did some things that basically disqualified him as being the next Tsar.

He married Victoria Melita without the Tsar permission

She was his first cousin

And I think he betrayed the Tsar when he swore off his allience when the revolution occured.

Could be wrong but I think these things would have made it so Krill and Ducky could not be Tsar or Tsarina in exile.

Offline darius

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2005, 03:01:34 AM »
The Tsar eventually recognised the marriage and Kirill´s place in the succession was not affected. According to the Imperial Succession - after Nicholas II, Alexei and Michael Alexandrovich, Kirill was heir to the throne.

Offline ashanti01

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2005, 10:18:51 AM »
Didn't the mother of a tsar have to be orthodox at the time of her marriage? I think Krill's mother converted years later when it seemed her son would one day become Tsar.

I could be wrong, but I'm sure I have read this several times.