Empress Maria Theresa and her large family

[Sissi]

Very interesting, they had a very frugal education, very simple, Josepha seemed indeed to be the prettiest of them all, too bad she died so young! It seeems also that none of the girls inherited their mother political intelligence, or maybe they were just not educated the way they should have been which is a shame. It is interesting to point out, that Marie Therese arranged the best mariages for her daughters and she expected them to serve the interest of the Austrian ruling house but never really provided them with a solid education. Young Antonia barely knwe how to write in german!! One of Marie Amelie daughter`s was named Maria Antonia do you know of Marie Antoinette was the Godmother!

  It must have been hard for Marie Anne and marie Elisabeth to remain spinster when her younger sister had great mariages!


  

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes I agree. MT herxeslf was a unigue situation beeing groomed as a ruler, but as she produced so many sons, she did not see the need for her own daughters to have a soild education as well. Instead they had a fun childhood, of whom all the girls looked back at those early years with affection.  I think Maria Karolina (Charlotte) and Maria Chistina ("Mimi") would have fared better with more education and training from their mother.  

[MarieCharlotte]

Yes I agree. MT herxeslf was a unigue situation beeing groomed as a ruler, but as she produced so many sons, she did not see the need for her own daughters to have a soild education as well.

Well, Maria Theresia had 11 daughters and only 5 sons. She would have been very grateful if she had as much sons as daughters. Sons were of course much more important than daughters.  

[Sissi]

in any case it is sad that she did not think of giving her daughters a more solid education, I know thta back then a princess did not need much but still, I believe marie Josephe de Saxe had a pretty good education as Mesdames de France had! I don t know but I don t see Marie Therese as a very loving mother, I know she cared a lot about her children she was truly preocupied by Marie Amelie and Marie Antoinette, but still I don t believe she was quite affectionate, Marie Antoinette was always afraid of her mother. It is sad that such a smart woman did not saw the importance of giving her daughters a proper education that would have enable them to be at ease in their role as queen consort, besides that Marie Therese wanted them to serve as mediator and influence the policies of their adoptive country in favor of the hapsbourg.

I know Marie Caroline was terribly grief at her sister `s death but what was marie Christine and Marie Amelie reaction to it??

[CountessKate]

Maria Theresa was a very controlling parent to all her children except for Maria Christine, 'Mimi', and it was as if she indulged herself by having one favorite - very unfair on the rest of the family.  All Mimi's brothers and sisters resented the favoritism and also resented the control.  The picture one often gets of the huge family as a harmonious whole at the theatre, engaged in useful pursuits, in domestic occupations, is in strong contrast to the actuality of the distance and domineering of Maria Theresa, who mainly managed her family through governesses and tutors and later, diplomatic spies.  She wanted her daughters especially to be brought up to obey her and to make good marriages, and education came a very long way behind docility and good manners.  Maria Amalia and Maria Carolina took the opportunity offered by less intelligent husbands to seize political control, with varying degrees of success, and certainly in Maria Amalia's case one must question whether her wild behaviour was caused by her desire to challenge her mother's domination.  I'm not sure a good education would have helped.

However, even with the boys who were carefully educated, the domination was there and often had unfortunate results.  Joseph's disastrous second marriage was relentlessly inflicted on him by his parents (in this Franz Stephan showed himself just as controlling as Maria Theresa) and his retaliation was to simply refuse to make any choice of second bride whatsoever, leave it entirely to his parents, and then refuse to show any interest in the wife selected for him (there isn't any evidence that he in fact mistreated her or said that ugly thing about her body being covered with boils, but he did neglect her).  

Leopold also did not was not quite the urbane figure he seems from a distance.  His feelings towards Mimi have been quoted earlier and Derek Beales' interesting biography of Joseph II mentions Leopold's diary entries suggesting he bitterly resented Joseph's continual advice as well.  There clearly was a lot of anger under the surface there.

In short, Maria Theresa managed to bring up a very modern, dysfunctional family!

[MarieCharlotte]

As Karl Joseph was Maria Theresia's favourite son, I would be really surprised if we wasn't on this family painting. 

[britt.25]

The book "Die deutschen Kaiser" by Georg Johannes Kugler says that on the family portrait the boy with the red dress, who stands rather in the middle of the picture, is the future emperor Joseph II., whereas the boy with the white dress (it is stated that it is an hungarian uniform) on the far right right, next to empress Maria Theresia, who takes his hand, is Karl Joseph, who died at the age of fourteen.

For me it is a bit strange, that, if you look at the portrait- which is indeed a wonderful painting- all faces of the people are very similar, too similar in my view. Surely siblings have similarities, but the faces are too identical, on later portraits it is to see, without any doubt- that all siblings are a bit different, especially for example Leopold II. and his predecessor and brother Joseph II. They were different not only different in their characters, but also in their statures and their lookings. 

 

[MarieCharlotte]

That's right, Britt. In Schönbrunn I was once told that it was Maria Theresia's order that her children had to be painted quite identically, because she didn't want them to argue. If they all looked almost the same, no one could have said: "Oh, look, I am so much prettier than you!" 

[Maria_Pavlovna]

Maria Karoline (Charlotta) - I don't know her other names ...

She had no other names. She  died on the sameday of her brith.

[Eric_Lowe]

i think there was 3 Maria Karolinas...

[MarieCharlotte]

i think there was 3 Maria Karolinas...

That's right. Maria Theresia seemed to have a preference for the name "Caroline". She was very close to Caroline Gräfin Fuchs Mollard who educated her. Maybe she also wanted to honour her father Emperor Karl and wanted to have at least one daughter named after him.

Maria Caroline Ernestina Antonia Josepha Johanna  (1740-1741)
Maria Caroline (September 17th 1748) ... sometimes she is also called "Charlotte", "Carlotta" or even "Christine"
Maria Caroline Ludovica Josepha Johanna Antonia (1752-1848), Queen of the Two Sicilies ... known as "Maria Karolina"

Emperor Franz I. and his second wife Maria Theresia, herself daughter of Archduchess Maria Karolina, who were both grandchildren of Maria Theresia, also had three daughters called "Caroline":

Caroline Leopoldine (1794-1795)
Caroline Louise (1795-1799)
Carolina Ferdinanda (1801-1832), Crownprincess of Saxony

[Eric_Lowe]

I think Caroline (Naples) was closest to MA's heart, although she also written to Maria Amalia (Parma) and Maria Christina (Brussels) as well. 

[ivanushka]

Yes, it seems that Marie Antoinette and Caroline were as close as two peas in a pod - so much so that at one point I think Maria Theresa threatened to separate them.

It's interesting that the two closest friendships of Marie Antoinette's life in France (the Princess de Lamballe and the Duchesse de Polignac) were with women a few years older than she was, just as Caroline had been.  Perhaps, unconsciously, she was trying to recreate the close bond she had enjoyed with her sister as a girl.

Sorry, that's off point for the thread!

I guess that any jealousy Amalia may have felt at her youngest sister making such a splendid marriage would have ended with the revolution and its dreadful outcome.

[Eddie_uk]

After the revolution the Princess Royale wrote to her aunt Marie Caroline "My mother often spoke of you, she loved you more than any of her sisters"

Sad that the sisters never saw each other again.

[ivanushka]

Isn't it?  Marie Antoinette was only 12 when Caroline went to Naples (and Amalia to Parma - I think the two of them married in the same year).  I guess that was the fate of Princesses then, being packed off to a foreign court in your teens and quite possibly never seeing any of your family again.  I suppose they were brought up to expect it but it still must have been both hard and frightening.