Empress Maria Theresa and her large family

[CountessKate]

I think the only person that could be truly counted on to save Marie Antoinette was Empress Maria Theresa. Although MT (in her latter years) loathed war, I don't think she would've watched by and tried to profit from the French governmental problems. She would've done something effective to save her daughter. I'm not sure about Leopold (never close to Marie Antoinette) nor Joseph, even if Maria Carolina tried to intervene. Antonia Fraser wrote that Joseph, despite his affection for MA, declared in 1789 that he will be neutral in the upheavals in France, no matter what happens to the King and Queen. 

Given that measures to save Marie Antoinette would effectively have meant war with France, I'm not sure that even she would have done so.  But I agree that she was probably the only person who might have stood up against the French in their treatment of her daughter, if she had been alive.  And to be honest, once the French royal familiy's escape attempt had failed, they were much more closely guarded by far less corruptable jailers and it was going to take far more than just money or good will to free them.  Even a war was more to the advantage of the French revolutionary government than it was to Louis XVI or Marie Antoinette as it united the French against those supporting the royal family.

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes...however since all her direct family (mother & brothers) died, a nephew is not going to save her. Her fate was sealed. 

[CountessKate]

In fact, it's actually difficult to know what could have been done.  Even if Maria Carolina had sold everything she could have laid her hands on with Ferdinand's good will, all we're talking about is money to try to bribe jailors and procure an escape.  And if money couldn't effect this the first time, it's not likely it would have done much good after Marie Antoinette was imprisoned more severely.  If the Italian Bourbons and the Austrian Habsburgs had stood up and old the revolutionary government to take their hands off an Austrian Archduchess, or they would declare war, the result would have been just what happened later in the French revolutionary wars - the republican army would have got its act together in a blaze of defiance and flattened them, and Marie Antoinette would have died anyway.  Its not always remembered that it didn't take Napoleon to trounce the Bourbons and the Habsburgs - generals such as Dumouriez and Coustine were doing it before he came along.  Would diplomacy have done the trick?  I really don't think the revolutionary government was in a position to go soft on one of the primary hate-figures of the revolution - there is nothing I can think of which could have been achieved through diplomatic means under the particular circumstances they were in.  I honestly don't think Marie Antoinette's fate was sealed by her relatives failing to stand by her by some means or other - I think it was sealed when she and her family failed to escape in time.

[prinzheinelgirl]

I think you are quite right on, CountessKate.  There is strong evidence that Maria Amalia loved her mother, despite their differences and her refusal  to be dictated upon.  

I also think Maria Amalia's hostility to Du Tillot was also because he slandered her at the foreign courts (according to a reliable source on Piacenza's  history); it's likely that she did view him as someone who should serve her and her husband,  instead of making things difficult for them. It wasn't as if she was prejudiced against commoners as there is evidence that she was more disposed to the commoners rather than the nobles.    

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Joseph II on Maria Amalia and his other siblings in a letter to the Comte de Provence in 1786 (my own loose translation):

"My friend,

For the discontent, which often finds itself exposed to a monarch, I seek the peace and domestic joys that robbed us of the throne, in the circle of my family.

My brothers are so dear to  me, and my sisters.... since I lost the joys of fatherhood, they have become my replacement for everything that I was robbed of fate.

The Grand Duke of Florence is a prince, the patriarchal virtues, has his home and father of his people at the same time, he is loved by everyone, Tuscany is the happiest country in Italy.

Archduke Ferdinand, governor-general of Milan, connects with the character of the German princes, the finest qualities of our late father, kind, benevolent and condescending towards the people for his friends.

The elector, my youngest brother is born to be rulers. I have the most tender friendship for these princes, and the land which he confided by Providence to lead, would complain if the dictator  usurped Germany would have prevented his elevation.

Such are imperfect features from the paintings of my family, I am too much the friend of these gentlemen, but that my heart could still be in the description of their characters,

From the circle of men, I hasten to make you an outline of the princesses, my sisters.

The oldest, Maria Anna, is  pious, virtuous and kind, a lady of higher human species, created for the joys of another world.

Christine, Governess General in the Austrian Netherlands and the wife of the Duke of Saxe Teschen, my second sister, a fine woman. The joys of motherhood would glorify her  lot in life.

The Archduchess Elisabeth is a very amiable lady.  

The Duchess of Parma (Maria Amalia) and the Queen of the Two Sicilies (Maria Carolina) are Amazons, if I may use an an allegory. Two ladies who have made their nation worthy of confidence and (with) talent enough to govern men and empires.

Antoinette, the queen of the Franks and the wife of Louis XVI. Her charms captivate two nations. She is revered by the people of the Gauls, loved and admired by her husband and of Europe.

You see, my  friend, in this picture, is the source of my joy. See in this, what are my compensation for the injuries which gives the diadem, and if approved would be the envy of morality, you envy me because of the happiness that my famiy provides, and what with the dearest gift of Providence.

Joseph"

(I think it was unlikely that Joseph was  wholly unaware  of Marie Antoinette's reputation and her unpopularity in France by 1786 for  it definitely started earlier. The only thing I can think of is affection for his sister regarding his flattering words on her).

[CountessKate]

Joseph II on Maria Amalia and his other siblings in a letter to the Comte de Provence in 1786 (my own loose translation):

Given the recipient of this letter, I think it would be unwise to take it as truly indicative of Joseph's genuine feelings towards his siblings.  The Comte de Provence was not especially loyal to his brother Louis XVI and there were many rows between them; indeed, he was also suspected of malicious gossip about Marie Antoinette.  Joseph therefore may well have been painting a picture of a harmonious family of united brothers and sisters of which he was the head, which the Comte would do well to emulate with regard to his own family.  That is not to say that Joseph did not have warm feelings towards at least some of his siblings, but like many large families there were those to whom he was closer and those to whom he - at least in his actions - appeared to be indifferent to.  But he would have certainly known enough about the behaviour of the Comte de Provence to be unlikely to open up in any genuinely meaningful way to an enemy of a Habsburg Archduchess and his letter appears to me to have been written in a way which (very typical for Joseph) paints a strong moral.

[prinzheinelgirl]

Given the recipient of this letter, I think it would be unwise to take it as truly indicative of Joseph's genuine feelings towards his siblings.  The Comte de Provence was not especially loyal to his brother Louis XVI and there were many rows between them; indeed, he was also suspected of malicious gossip about Marie Antoinette.  Joseph therefore may well have been painting a picture of a harmonious family of united brothers and sisters of which he was the head, which the Comte would do well to emulate with regard to his own family.  That is not to say that Joseph did not have warm feelings towards at least some of his siblings, but like many large families there were those to whom he was closer and those to whom he - at least in his actions - appeared to be indifferent to.  But he would have certainly known enough about the behaviour of the Comte de Provence to be unlikely to open up in any genuinely meaningful way to an enemy of a Habsburg Archduchess and his letter appears to me to have been written in a way which (very typical for Joseph) paints a strong moral.

Very good points. I was especially surprised on his comments on Marie Antoinette, (again) surely he would've known how unpopular she was becoming in France after 1781. And to praise her to the Comte de Provence no less.

Based on what I have read so far, he certainly liked Leopold and Marie Antoinette, and you did mention in another thread that he admitted liking Marie Carolina (I've read that she wrote him frequently from Naples).  I haven't read much on Mimi and him as well as Maximilian. And his letters suggest that he didn't like Maria Amalia at times and indeed blocked several things for her.  There seems to be distrust between him and the Archduke Ferdinand (who seemed to have set spies on him as well). And he also didn't treat Maria Anna and Maria Elisabeth very well in Vienna.  Given that, it is also possible that he did feel affection for all his siblings, that is when he wasn't annoyed with them (i.e. he was very annoyed at Marie Antoinette's big failure to promote his interests at Versailles),  

[CountessKate]

Joseph seemed to be fond of his younger sisters - Derek Beales notes in his biography that he was fond of Maria Josepha as well as Marie Antoinette, and he was certainly concerned for Maria Carolina.  But as you say, prinzheinelgirl, he didn't behave very well to Marianne and Maria Elizabeth, neither of whom were keen on going off to their respective nunneries when their mother died.  And he may have been fond of Leopold, but he nevertheless caused him to feel a lot of resentment on many occasions when he interfered financially or politically which he was rather prone to do.  So even those to whom he felt affection did not escape his relentless attentions, and in certain respects Maria Amalia did well to create a view of herself which labelled her as dangerous to meddle with.

[prinzheinelgirl]

Thanks!

Based on what I have read so far, Joseph mentioned Maria Amalia in his letters to Maria Theresa and to Leopold.  Although to be fair, the only times he seemed quite hostile to her was when Maria Amalia was 'misbehaving' in Parma (1772-1773), and also when she wanted to visit Vienna. Had he approved, Maria Amalia would've likely visited Vienna, perhaps before MT died.  It seemed to be a project that was resurrected from time to time (1775 or 1776-1780) and MT didn't seem to be very disapproving.  Too bad MT seemed to have been tired of always quarreling with Joseph, and likely just accepted what he said.

[Eric_Lowe]

There I really pitied those Archduchesses. MT expect them to be popular, ruled their husbands and not to forget she was Austrian ? Marie Antoinette's advice from her mother on this made her unpopular even though she did nothing. Divided loyalities are very diffucult (from the land of your birth to your land of adoption). MC never really thought of herself as Italian, but one to see Austria's interest go through. That is why I said she was Austria's dutiful daughter. Her marriage to Ferdinand was a political marriage, so it would be easy to disregard him in that way. One cannot use today's standard of a marriage to judge MC. As far as she was concerned, she gave birth to the heir and provided daughters for foreign alliances. That was as much as they expect a queen consort. Which was why Marie Antoinette's childlessness was such a thorn to her for the longest time.

[prinzheinelgirl]

There I really pitied those Archduchesses. MT expect them to be popular, ruled their husbands and not to forget she was Austrian ? Marie Antoinette's advice from her mother on this made her unpopular even though she did nothing. Divided loyalities are very diffucult (from the land of your birth to your land of adoption).

I think is is where cleverness and good instincts should come together (how to thread this divided loyalties thing). Maria Carolina seemed to do quite well in the early years regarding this, but wasn't able to maintain it for some reason.  Marie Antoinette didn't need her mother's (sometimes unsound) advice to make her unpopular both at court and with the people...her heedlessness, carelessness, thoughtlessness did her in. Maria Amalia seemingly (mainly) escaped this dilemma and was able to maintain her popularity (at least with the masses, if not with all the nobles).

One cannot use today's standard of a marriage to judge MC.

Nowhere in my above post did I compare the 18th century royal marriages with today's standards.  Although I might add, some princesses who married abroad didn't share the same reputation as the archduchesses (interfering, etc.; Maria Amalia is included, of course).
 

[ivanushka]

There I really pitied those Archduchesses. MT expect them to be popular, ruled their husbands and not to forget she was Austrian ?

Agreed.  It seems to me that Maria Theresa never seemed to realise that the advice she gave her daughters; namely to make themselves totally beloved in their new countries and be deferential to their husbands while also constantly advancing Austrian interests was totally contradictory.  If the daughter devoted herself to her husband and the interests of her new country then she might well end up supporting policies that were anti Austrian and if she constantly pushed the Habsburg advantage then she would probably have to dominate her husband to do so and might well lose popular support in the process.  Though I admire MT as a ruler, as a mother she really does seem to have expected her daughters to perform miracles and then been displeased with them because they didn't.

[prinzheinelgirl]

I see the points above and I concur with some. I am not much a fan of Maria Theresa's parenting skills and I find her advice bewildering (impractical) at times (not all, of course). But up to when should be "blame" rest on Maria Theresa's shoulders? Note that Maria Theresa died in 1780, more than sufficient time to "amend" and find a balance between loyalty to one's country of birth and the adopted one as well as learning from one's mistakes before 1789 and beyond....that is my point.

Also, I have read that Maria Carolina did not (mostly) allow her mother to interfere in her personal and political decisions..... so what now? Should we blame MT for all her later troubles, her unpopularity with the Neapolitans and Sicilians? Same with troubles Marie Antoinette and Maria Amalia had.....Based on what I have read,  MT got blamed for her criticisms, sometimes unsound advice, and for sacrificing her daughters for reasons of state... Hence, their failures. I somewhat  concur with it, but we must also factor in the personal accountability of her daughters.  I think in analysing the lives of the archduchesses and the outcome of such, both (MT and the personal accountability of said daughters) are equally important.

[Eric_Lowe]

Well...I think by the time Mt laid down the advice, the psycological damage is done. Modern science had proved that is a child is not given enough love and reafirmation by his/her parent, they would must likelly develope a lack of confidence in some level. MT (liater QV & Queen Alexandra) used their children 's love & trust to built in obidence. That is why the punishment was so harsh to Mata Amalia when her siblings were forbidden to write to her. A more psycologically use of isolation I have yet to see. Also I stressed again MC's marriage is a political marriage not a love match like Mimi's. MC did not have the worst marriage though if compared to the one by George IV & Caroline of Brunswick.

[prinzheinelgirl]

I'm not sure if and how Maria Theresa's lack of love as you put it affected Maria Carolina and the others (other than being jealous of Mimi, of course). Because I seem to have read that MC was her second favourite daughter, after Mimi, so MT probably showed more affection to her than to the others (assumming not the same level as what Mimi got of course). Perhaps Franz Stephan's love was enough? Would you call MC as less than confident?  I think it was Marie Antoinette who seemingly lacked confidence, not MC (nor Maria Amalia).

Of course MC had a political marriage with Ferdinand of Naples but I think it could've been better had both parties made more concessions and had been more forgiving to each other. Incidentally, I have read recently The Unruly Queen, a biography of Caroline of Brunswick...another fascinating, eccentric and controversial royal. I agree that MC's married life was better than hers, but the end wasn't much better either.

There I really pitied those Archduchesses. MT expect them to be popular, ruled their husbands and not to forget she was Austrian ?

Plowing through various biographies of Maria Theresa, I think CA Macartney (spelling?) in Maria Theresa and the House of Austria, summarised best her view of her daughters' duties: yes, they were not to forget that they were Austrians and should win their husband's approval/favor, but they were not to interfere with state matters (unless given directives of that sort by Vienna); it appears to be a selective sort of thing (politics). And I think I understand now why MT was very distressed at her daughters' very blatant interference in state/political matters (not that it was uncomplicated nor do I fully agree with her view). Their role, aside from favoring Austria (again, only at their mother's call), was to bear children, please their husbands, and keep up the dignity of their house and status by correct, dignified behavior (Maria Amalia and Marie Antoinette obviously failing in the last one, especially Maria Amalia).  

[CountessKate]

Modern science had proved that is a child is not given enough love and reafirmation by his/her parent, they would must likelly develope a lack of confidence in some level. MT (liater QV & Queen Alexandra) used their children 's love & trust to built in obidence.

I think it is rather unfair to look at the relationship of Maria Theresa and her children in the light of modern relationships and expectations.  Eighteenth century parents were much more remote figures, and royalty especially was seldom intimate or 'loving' in the way we would see as natural today.  As a mother, Maria Theresa took an intense interest in her children, although their daily bringing up was left to others - very much the norm for other royal families right up until the 20th century (and Queen Elizabeth II has been criticised for a certain remoteness in her childrens' upbringing).  While her interest could be overbearing, and her messages as others here have observed, were mixed, none of her children could deny that as far as contemporary standards went she was a concerned and involved mother.  Children's obedience was one of the major requirement of parents of the age and naturally Maria Theresa demanded it - this was standard at the time and none of her children could have expected anything different, even if they disagreed or rebelled.  The major problem was not that she didn't love them or appear to do so, it was that she favoured one daughter over others and thus set up expectations which she was not prepared to meet for her other children, particularly Maria Amalia who was old enough to know what was going on and to expect something different from what she got.  But I would agree with prinzheinelgirl that none of Maria Theresa's daughters appeared to lack confidence except perhaps Marie Antoinette, and any such problems stemmed largely from her situation in France and the fact that she was unable to perform her major role of bearing heirs to the throne.  Her mother's advice might have been demanding and intrusive, but it actually was quite good in terms of establishing herself in the good graces of Louis XV, keeping onside with his mistress, not spending too much money, and keeping out of the plots of Mesdames.  Marie Antoinette could have lied and wriggled and felt that she could have done without the continual stream of advice, but neither she nor any of her sisters could have said their mother didn't 'love' them in the terms they or their contemporaries would have understood it.