Empress Maria Theresa and her large family

[Eric_Lowe]

MT did not care if their marriages were happy or not, it is all for Austria. She wanted them to be popular so that they could push the agenda for their mother country.

[CountessKate]

MT did not care if their marriages were happy or not, it is all for Austria. She wanted them to be popular so that they could push the agenda for their mother country.

I don't think that's true at all.  Like many conventional eighteenth century parents, Maria Theresa believed that her daughters' marital happiness lay in pleasing their husbands, performing their royal duties graciously, and working tactfully behind the scenes to support their Austrian family.  If they fulfilled that criteria, they would have happy marriages.  Every other royal family whose daughters made royal marriages pretty much thought the same.  There wasn't the expectation of romantic love to the same degree, marriage to someone of the same rank was most appropriate, and the general feeling was that this was the proper destiny of a princess.  Of course it was difficult leaving home at a young age and going to another country, with new relationships to navigate and tricky political situations to face.  But plenty of young women managed - after the first difficulties Maria Amalia settled down, Marie Antoinette certainly got on reasonably well with the Dauphin despite their sexual problems, and the imported Isabel of Parma married a very difficult man with great success.  To imply that Maria Theresa brutally married off her daughters and wanted them to do well in their new roles just to push the Habsburg political agenda is to ignore the fact that a mother of Maria Theresa's status at the time was expected to do the best for her dynasty and to get the highest ranking husbands for her daughters, and this is what she did, with one notable exception in Maria Christina.  She was acting, as she and her contemporaries saw it, as a good mother doing the best for her daughters.  Maria Carolina's marriage did not work out, but this is not to say that it could not have done so had she not lost the abililty - or will - to keep her husband on her side. 

[prinzheinelgirl]

I agree with this. I'm not much of a fan of Maria Theresa but I must admit that, based on some evidence, she tried to help her daughters cope in their married life despite sacrificing them for state reasons. I don't know what sort of advice she gave Maria Carolina on her Ferdinand (other than the letter MC got upon her departure from Vienna), but I do find her advice to Maria Amalia very sensible (on how to cope with her husband's womanising ).... that foolish love (I take it to mean, she meant romantic love) is soon past, but Maria Amalia and her Ferdinand should work on respect, trust and friendship, which is the basis of a presumably happy marriage and for the good of the house (long after passion is gone).  All 3 traits seemed to be missing in MC's marriage.

Also, I just read that it was Maria Christina (Mimi) who paved the way for MC's ouster of Tanucci. It seems that Mimi counseled her sister (while she visited her in Naples in 1776) on how to work on Tanucci's ouster with her husband. I have not found much evidence that MC was indeed very intelligent, even though she was praised as such. And she supposedly had total control of Ferdinand , but after 8 years, she still wasn't successful in this respect and, apparently, the brilliant steps/advice/schemes had to come from Mimi (a master manipulator), not her..... Sir Nathaniel Wraxall wrote about this. Also, many of her ideas for reform came from Joseph and Leopold.  I think, in this respect, a very fawning English biographer was right in admitting that her intellect was overly praised by her admirers. Not to mention that crack by Joseph and Leopold on her mind....

[Eric_Lowe]

I don't think MT consuel MC that way. Most surely after Ferdinand "used" her and said rather ungallantly that "she sweat like a pig and sleep like a log", MT should have talked to her on how to win his love. Nothing of the sort was found. Instead MC had to resort to sex and cunning to get herself preganant with a male child before she would be allowed into the counsel (as mother of the heir). It was okay to have love, respect with a small duchy (and do remember Amalia went with grudges after the failed attempt to get Karl as her husband). Like MC she took control, although Amalia's bullying worked because she was older than Ferdinand of Parma and that he was much sweeter than his cousin in Naples. It seems like MC, MA & even Marie Antoinette liked to be in some sort of countrol, because of their mother was the boss in their family. As for MT, yes she wanted good for her daughters, but yet she also wanted them to perform for the interests of Austria. Those interests more than once clashed in their advice to their children. Who was sometime confused but was intimidated by her.

[prinzheinelgirl]

I don't think MT consuel MC that way. Most surely after Ferdinand "used" her and said rather ungallantly that "she sweat like a pig and sleep like a log", MT should have talked to her on how to win his love. Nothing of the sort was found. Instead MC had to resort to sex and cunning to get herself preganant with a male child before she would be allowed into the counsel (as mother of the heir).

Consummating the marriage and being intimate thereafter were part of their duties. I don't think Ferdinand "used" her in this respect (except when he passed on those diseases to her later on), although his remark above was indeed uncalled for and definitely uncouth. I think it would be interesting to read Maria Theresa's letters to Maria Carolina on Ferdinand. I do remember she counseled MC to never let her husband know that she didn't like him, if she found herself unable to do so but there must be others....anyway, we see MC follow this advice in the early years only for by mid 1770s she was already bullying Ferdinand to a certain degree.  

It was okay to have love, respect with a small duchy (and do remember Amalia went with grudges after the failed attempt to get Karl as her husband). Like MC she took control, although Amalia's bullying worked because she was older than Ferdinand of Parma and that he was much sweeter than his cousin in Naples.

I'm not sure I follow what you said here.  Are you saying love and a workable marriage could only be found if a royal married someone from a small state?

Also, all the sweetness (and goodness, I may add) shown by Ferdinand of Parma to Maria Amalia would not have amounted to anything had she remained immersed in her grudges. In this respect, Maria Amalia was different from MC. She was willing to move on, despite whatever issues she may have with Ferdinand and vice versa,  and try to make her personal relationship with her husband work. I'm not even sure how Maria Amalia's being older than her husband factored in the bullying (which seems to be exaggerated for there is evidence that Ferdinand was very taken by his wife and she didn't need to bully him to get whatever she wanted, and they were on the same page as to Du Tilot and wanting to be free). She could be older but if she was timid and uninvolved, they would've gotten nowhere in politics. Although I can think of two instances wherein Maria Amalia did threaten her husband, Ferdinand could also be stubborn and did what he wanted.

It seems like MC, MA & even Marie Antoinette liked to be in some sort of countrol, because of their mother was the boss in their family. As for MT, yes she wanted good for her daughters, but yet she also wanted them to perform for the interests of Austria. Those interests more than once clashed in their advice to their children. Who was sometime confused but was intimidated by her.

Yes, all 3 appeared to be quite eager to take control at different point, most likely influenced by what they saw growing up. However, we must remember that personal accountability is also factor here.  I don't think all 3 were robots and did all what their mother asked. It was up to them whether to take their mother's advice or not. They were, after all, only accountable (in the final analysis) to their husbands, not MT. Although it appears that love for their mother and loyalty to their house also factors, it was up to them to find a balance in all this.  

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes. I can see similar approaches in mother & daughter. No wonder she said MC was the most like her. Yet MC lacked her wisdom in some ways. Indeed MT could be quite hypicritcal sometimes as Frederick The Great once said about MT taking part in dividing Poland "The more she cried, the more she took !". Marie Antoinette was also baffled by her mother's double standards sometimes...

[prinzheinelgirl]

If one looks at Maria Theresa objectively, she wasn't such an exceptional person (ruler) after all, at least not in the league with the two "greats" of the 18th century, i.e. Frederick the Great and Catherine the Great. There is no way you can call her brilliant (extremely intelligent) either, although she did display (good) common sense (not all the time though) and her reign was mostly judged as successful.   On the personal side, she also had many, many glaring faults. So, honestly, I can't see how Maria Carolina being compared to her mother (as the daughter most like her) is a great compliment.  My only guess is that MT's reputation for defending her heritage (from 1740-48) sealed her reputation as "brilliant" or similar as far as (most) historians/authors are concerned.  Of course, her achievements should be recognised but she also got overly praised. She wasn't even popular with her own subjects from the late 1760s to 1780.

[Eric_Lowe]

I think her greatness was that she kept most of her inheritance in tact and as the last of the original Hapsburgs, tried to have real family lives instead of a court. Most of her children had a happy and relaxed childhood until their father's demise. Even Marie Antoinette looked back that part of her life with rose tainted glasses. MT was a much more humane parent than Catherine was ever to her own son Paul. It is of course true that MT failed in many ways, she was always seen as the mother of her people.

[CountessKate]

MT was a much more humane parent than Catherine was ever to her own son Paul.

In fact, Derek Beales in his first volume of biography on Joseph II, makes the case that Franz Stephan and Maria Theresa were quite as brutal to Joseph in forcing him to marry against his will for the second time, as Catherine was to Paul in his bereavement.  In this, they were in fact less successful than Catherine was in finding a second spouse for their heir, since Maria Josepha was neither as attractive nor as intelligent as Isabel and indeed it was a most unhappy marriage, unlike that of Paul's second marriage.  Catherine's behaviour towards her son, while severe, could hardly be deemed 'inhumane' and many eighteenth century rulers devoted a lot of time to keeping their heirs in check, and preventing them from having anything to do with politics.  Had Franz Stephan lived, it is likely that Maria Theresa would have used his authority to prevent Joseph from instituting a lot of the policies he would have liked, which she could not prevent in her co-ruler.  So I don't think Maria Theresa was necessarily more 'humane' than Catherine - and while I fully concur with the view that Maria Caroline could have made a better job of her marital relationship than she did, at least in the longer term, there was nothing humane in sending a daughter off to Naples to the unattractive Ferdinand.  Maria Theresa undoubtedly considered she was acting as a 'good' mother in making this match, but equally she knew she was being a harsh one, albeit for the good of the dynasty and for the future prospects of her daughter. 

[Eric_Lowe]

Well. I know but at least the children had a good childhood. In Schonbrun Palace, there is a room called the breakfast room. In that room there are plaster pieces made by the archduchesses for their parents, MT lovingly use it to decorate her room where she had breakfast every day. It must be quite fun for the children doing some work for their parents. One could imagine the elder girls teaching the younger ones (like Antonia & Carolina) how to make them. The atmosphere of Schonbrunn was considerably much more relaxed than other counts where the young archduchesses made friends with their maids and little animals. I don't think the same in Versailles, St Petersburg or Potsdam.

[prinzheinelgirl]

In fact, Derek Beales in his first volume of biography on Joseph II, makes the case that Franz Stephan and Maria Theresa were quite as brutal to Joseph in forcing him to marry against his will for the second time.... Maria Theresa undoubtedly considered she was acting as a 'good' mother in making this match, but equally she knew she was being a harsh one, albeit for the good of the dynasty and for the future prospects of her daughter.  

I think I remember Beales saying that Franz Stephan was quite guilty of hypocrisy because he declared himself against political matches. Maria Theresa, on the other hand, seemed to have little sympathy for her children's matches (excepting her favourite of course) and just deemed that her counsels from afar should be able to make up for whatever unhappiness she meted out to them.

[prinzheinelgirl]

I'm very curious about the order of precedence in the Maria Theresa's family. If anyone could help me out, I'd be most grateful.

I'm assuming the sons ranked first before the daughters but age also mattered, therefore Archduchess Maria Anna was ahead in rank of all the daughters. Or was the rank of the archduke/archduchess based on age?

Then when most of them married, the order of precedence would've been what?... This is what I have in mind:

1.   Joseph, Holy Roman Emperor
2.   Maria Carolina, Queen of Naples
3.   Marie Antoinette, Queen of France
4.   Maximilian, Archbishop-Elector of Cologne, Duke of Westphalia, and Prince-Bishop of Munster (or should Leopold precede him?)
5.   Leopold, Grand Duke of Tuscany
6.   Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria and Governor of Milan (or should Maria Amalia precede him as wife of a sovereign?)
7.   Maria Amalia, Duchess of Parma (wife of sovereign who was styled as HRH and also an Infante of Spain)
8.   Maria Christina, Duchess of Teschen (was the duchy considered sovereign like Parma & does being Governor of Hungary and later on the Austrian Netherlands count?)
9.   Maria Anna, Archduchess of Austria
10. Maria Elisabeth, Archduchess of Austria

I assume Maria Amalia had to curtsey to Maria Carolina when she visited Naples and also to Leopold and Ferdinand when she visited them. Then Mimi had to curtsey to Maria Amalia when she went to Parma, and Maria Anna to Maria Amalia when the latter visited her in Klangenfurt? Any thoughts?

Also, what was their correct style as archdukes and archduchesses? HI & R or HRH?  In the Order of Maria Luisa, Maria Amalia (listed as the 8th recipient of the order) was styled as HI & R The Duchess of Parma.  

Thank you!

[Marc]

I think all Archdukes/Arcduchesses are styled HI & RH...

Maybe the order of precedence in case of equal status members depended on how much they years they ruled and the one who ruled longer gets the precedence-I think that today is like that for Kings and Queens...

[ivanushka]

The order of precedence question is a very interesting one and raises some fascinating issues of family dynamics.  Obviously all the siblings would have grown up knowing Joseph was going to be Emperor so would be accustomed to the idea of giving precedence to him.  However amongst each other it must have caused some friction.  Would Maria Amalia really have been expected to curtsey to Maria Carolina?  I appreciate that Queen outranks Duchess but as they were sisters would they not perhaps have put the formality to one side even for the official greeting?  Would they even have been allowed to?  I had always imagined that Max would have ranked fairly lowly as the Electorate of Cologne was a fairly small state - or was the mere fact of being an Elector sufficient?  I guess I'm probably looking at it with too modern an eye.  I do love the idea of Mimi having to curtsey to Amalia, and bet Amalia loved it too!!! 

[ivanushka]

Recently I've been speculating as to what would have happened re the foreign marriages if Josepha had survived to marry Ferdinand of Naples.  I believe that Caroline was her mother's first choice for marrying Louis XVI.  Do you think Antoinette would then have married Ferdinand of Parma?  I was wondering if perhaps MT might still have decided to send Amalia to Parma and instead tried to marry Antoinette to one of Louis' brothers.  As presumably the French alliance was considered the most important, MT might have felt it preferable to have two daughters at Versailles.  Not only could they give each other much needed emotional support but also two daughters working together would probably have more chance of safeguarding Austrian interests than one daughter alone.  What do people think?