Author Topic: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants  (Read 188157 times)

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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2013, 08:28:32 AM »
What happened to that family ?  :o

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2013, 10:08:56 AM »
Didn't it have to do with resentments over loss of succession rights due to unequal marriages? Louis Ferdinand's eldest 2 sons married unequally and had to forfeit their rights, and the financial rewards that went along with it. So even though George Friedrich has 3 male cousins in the elder line, they aren't the head of the family.

There was also this case which could make for uncomfortable family relations, though I have no idea if it did or if everything was amicable. LF's daughter Marie-Cécile married Friedrich August of Oldenburg and they had 3 children before they divorced in 1989. In 1991 her ex-husband remarried Countess Donata of Castell-Rüdenhausen, the widow of Marie-Cécile's late brother, Prince Louis Ferdinand (Jr) and mother of George Friedrich and Cornelie-Cécile (who was born with development problems due to her mother contracting  toxoplasmosis during pregnancy.) Louis Ferdinand Jr had died while his children were very young due to being in a severe accident during military maneuvers when he was pinned between two vehicles. Although his leg was amputated, he died several weeks later due to the trauma.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 10:14:52 AM by grandduchessella »
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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2013, 10:56:32 AM »
Thanks for the info.

Are the siblings talking to each other ? I don't know why it is so difficult to marry within one's class. There are many aristocrats (in Germany, Austria and even Spain and Scandinavia) and royalist a Hohenzollern can marry.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2013, 11:08:22 AM »
The will (of Louis Ferdinand Sr?) was even contested in court. After much expense, GF won and he was recognized as head of the house and the will was upheld. I believe the requirement for equal marriage (which GF is a product of) was only for 3 generations - which means it expired with his parents. He was probably then under no obligation to marry equally so, even though his marriage is, he could marry solely for love. Though, given the court drama, requirement or not, I could see him being crucified by his uncles if he hadn't married equally. Though Marlene noted that it wasn't generational but rather the next 2 heirs so GF would've been bound since his father predeceased his grandfather. Either way, it seems that GF is genuinely in a love match.

Marlene once wrote: "The appanage was limited to Louis Ferdinand's surviving children, but when Friedrich Wilhelm and Michael sued, they apparently lost their allowance (although, under German law, they received something from their father's estate.) Louis Ferdinand's surviving sons have done nothing to find work on their own - and establish their own income. They were enabled by dad, but the party was over when Georg Friedrich inherited."

and further "All of Louis Ferdinand's surviving children received a percentage of the estate as required by German law. From what I understand Christian Sigismund was one of the executors of Louis Ferdinand's estate - but Louis Ferdinand was a smart man -and also included at least one of Donata's brothers as an executor as well. Louis Ferdinand had provided homes for his kids - none of who worked a day in their lives, and was providing appanages to his adult children as well. Georg stopped paying the appanages to Friedrich Wilhelm and Michael after they started all the problems .. and Friedrich Wilhelm told his father that he was going to challenge the will, even though he and his brother had lost their rights in the mid-1960s after their first marriages to commoners. George continued to pay the appanages to his surviving aunts and Onkel Christian Sigismund who was "head" of the family until GF reached the age of 30, and it was at this time that GF gained his full inheritance, or what was left of it. "

I think they should marry people of excellent character regardless of their antecedents--witness the late, lovely Princess Lillian of Sweden and the many tacky, entitled, spoiled royals/nobles out there for example. However, if you know the rules ahead of time, don't get bent out of shape when you marry (and remarry) outside the class and pay the consequences.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 11:35:20 AM by grandduchessella »
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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2013, 11:30:10 AM »
Indeed.

Or they can take a leaf out of the Glucksborg Family to marry money (security). From Mrs. Billy Leeds, Princess Marie Bonaparte, Eleanor Green to Marie Chantal Miller.

What about the daughters of LF & Kyra, did they got along among themselves and their brothers ?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2013, 11:39:02 AM »
More from Marlene:

"Wilhelm II's will was written after he had left the throne. The idea was to protect the fortune from the tax man. Many former ruling families, including Leiningen and Hohenzollern (princely) set up family trusts in the 1920s. There are similar examples with Sayn-Wittgenstein and Hannover (Ernst August's son is now running the estates). Wilhelm's will was very specific - the heir and the next heir had to marry equally. The Crown Prince was excluded as he would be largely bypassed for the main inheritance - and before 1945, the family owned a lot of property in the east - and his eldest son Wilhelm's marriage was unequal. Thus the heir to the estate was the second of the Crown Prince's son -Louis Ferdinand. He married equally. The next heir (nach erbe) also had to marry equally in order to inherit. The nach erbe was the young Louis Ferdinand, but he died before his father, so GF became the nach erbe.
All the Kaiser's descendants were parties to the case although the case only affected Louis Ferdinand's children and grandson, who was the primary heir. In the 1960s, the two eldest sons, Friedrich Wilhelm and Michael married commoners and ceased to be dynasts. These marriages ended in divorce and both remarried. Their second marriages were irrelevant because both had already lost their positions. They knew this -- but neither of these men ever worked, ever had a career. Louis Ferdinand provided his sons and daughters with homes and with allowances. When Louis Ferdinand died in 1991, GF became the head of the house. He was a minor at the time. He would not come into his full inheritance until age 30. One of his Castell Rudenhausen uncles and Prince Christian Sigismund were the adminstrators although LF was very smart, and the C-R uncle was the real "Guardian" and Christian Sigismund was the admin on paper. His marriage was equal.
Each of LF's surviving children received a percentage of the estate. None were excluded under German law, but GF was the primary heir. Friedrich Wilhelm and Michael wanted more, and tried to claim that their second marriages were equal. For nearly 30 years they knew they had no claim - but they thought they could do something to get more money. It took several court rulings, but the final decision was in GF's favor. But the court cases cost a lot of money. Unlike other former ruling families, the Prussians don't have any of their palaces in Berlin and Potsdam. Georg Friedrich does not have a family seat. He has had to put up for sale the properties that Louis Ferdinand bought for his kids, where the lived largely rent free. Georg Friedrich cannot afford to maintain such appanages. He was raised by his mother, away from the other Prussians. He's well off, and, in time, one hopes that the estate will again grow.

There are no house laws on marriage. Wilhelm II was a private German citizen when he made his will. No child can be excluded but a person who makes a will, according to final ruling, can put in qualifications. This as the same for the Leiningens and, of course, the late Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berlenburg. Prince Gustav cannot marry Carina Axelsson because of his grandfather's will. If he marries her, he loses every thing. "

And it's rather ironic that the brides from the nobility are now considered equal when they caused heart palpitations and disinheritances back when the families were actually on thrones--even later as well. Many of the morganatic families (Battenberg, Tecks, etc) who were so sneered at--especially by the Prussians--were from noble families. It's not like they were shopkeepers!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 11:42:56 AM by grandduchessella »
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2013, 11:56:08 AM »
George Friedrich with his parents--Louis Ferdinand Jr definitely looking like his dad!

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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2013, 12:17:08 PM »
I agree. Times has changed from the junky unwed mother crown princess of Norway to the coal miner's granddaughter in Kate Middleton. We come a long way baby.

It is sad to see a family quarrel over money. Did the daughters got a nice dowry too ?

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2013, 12:30:22 PM »
'And it's rather ironic that the brides from the nobility are now considered equal when they caused heart palpitations and disinheritances back when the families were actually on thrones--even later as well. Many of the morganatic families (Battenberg, Tecks, etc) who were so sneered at--especially by the Prussians--were from noble families. It's not like they were shopkeepers!'

Sophie Chotek was, after all, an entirely respectable countess from an old family.

Ann

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2013, 12:46:22 PM »
I agree...So I do not understand families instance on equal marriages. The Russian case springs into mind.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2013, 12:50:13 PM »
From Marlene's blog:

"The FAS profile describes Georg Friedrich as "polite, reserved, sometimes a bit shy," but there are people who know him "describe him as otherwise."   Critical reports in newspapers have been met with legal action.   Der Taggespiegel's written request for information about the wedding was denied.  Interview requests with the young couple have also been denied due to a risk of being asked critical questions. Many of these concerns fall back to the family quarrels regarding the inheritance.  ... he succeeded as head of the house in 1994.

But trouble was brewing, as the two eldest uncles fought Georg Friedrich's inheritance, which was based on the late Kaiser Wilhelm II's will....Louis Ferdinand was able to rebuild the family's finances.  All of his children received allowances and homes, but the allowances largely came to an end after his death.  All of his surviving children received a percentage of his estate, as required by German law, but the bulk of the fortune was inherited by Prince Georg Friedrich.  The lawsuits soon followed. ..There were various twists and turns to the case, but eventually, the high courts ruled in Georg Friedrich's favor.  

But the damage was done.   Lots of money went to legal fees, and Prince Georg Friedrich began selling the homes that his uncles had lived in for many years -- for which they lived largely rent free.   Der Taggespiegel reports that Georg Friedrich's three uncles, Princes Friedrich Wilhelm, Prince Michael and Prince Christian-Sigismund have not been invited to the wedding.   [It should be noted that Prince Christian Sigismund's marriage was approved by Prince Louis Ferdinand.]"

The complete blog here:
http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2011/08/controversy-mars-upcoming-royal-wedding.html

The Oldenburg children did not attend the wedding of their cousin/stepbrother, Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia.  Georg Friedrich's uncles, Friedrich Wilhelm, Michael and Christian Sigismund, and aunt Marie Cecile also did not attend that wedding.  His aunts Xenia and Kira are deceased. So that means of all the children of Louis Ferdinand & Kyra who are still living, none attended his wedding. If his Oldenburg cousins, who are the closest in relation due to the double relationship, didn't attend, and his uncle's children didn't attend, perhaps none of his cousins attended either? I only saw a few 'of Prussias' on the one guest list I saw.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2013, 12:51:41 PM »
I agree...So I do not understand families instance on equal marriages. The Russian case springs into mind.

Perhaps for the same reason they cling to Imperial titles when there hasn't been a German, Austrian or Russian Empire in almost 100 years and it's highly unlikely there ever will be again. In this case, though, it was set down decades ago by the late Wilhem II. I doubt George Friedrich will insist on such clauses in the future but you never know.

Since the will was contested for so long, does that mean it was first contested while Louis Ferdinand was still alive since he died less than 20 years ago?  Marlene had mentioned that one of the sons told LF that he would challenge it but were the lawsuits instituted prior to his death? If so--a little disrespectful to say the least. The sons knew the rules beforehand and their father had well-compensated them. I wonder, since GF inherited the bulk and he had money issues as a result of the trials, how if affected the uncles financially? They would've had less going in so it was pretty foolish to use what you did have (which wasn't too shabby) just trying to get more and failing.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 02:11:25 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2013, 12:55:38 PM »
'And it's rather ironic that the brides from the nobility are now considered equal when they caused heart palpitations and disinheritances back when the families were actually on thrones--even later as well. Many of the morganatic families (Battenberg, Tecks, etc) who were so sneered at--especially by the Prussians--were from noble families. It's not like they were shopkeepers!'

Sophie Chotek was, after all, an entirely respectable countess from an old family.

Ann

As was Julia Hauke (Battenbergs), Countess Claudine Rhédey von Kis-Rhéde (Tecks), Laura Williamina Seymour (Gleichens) and many others--including the British nobility who were fine by Queen Victoria (and her descendants) but would've never been marriageable by continental European standards (Dukes of Fife & Argyll, Earl of Harewood, etc). The future Wilhelm I was forced to give up his true love, Elise Radziwill, because her lineage wasn't good enough--even though she was related to the Prussian royal family already.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 12:59:03 PM by grandduchessella »
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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2013, 01:05:42 PM »
I think the reigning families are much more lenient than those of disposed ones. The current grand duchess of Luxembourg is not even aristocrat from Cuba.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, his family and descendants
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2013, 02:09:40 PM »

It is sad to see a family quarrel over money. Did the daughters got a nice dowry too ?

As to the females in the family, in my quoted posts, Marlene says [from my earlier quoted post]

"All of Louis Ferdinand's surviving children received a percentage of the estate as required by German law...Louis Ferdinand had provided homes for his kids - none of who worked a day in their lives, and was providing appanages to his adult children as well. Georg stopped paying the appanages to Friedrich Wilhelm and Michael after they started all the problems .. and Friedrich Wilhelm told his father that he was going to challenge the will, even though he and his brother had lost their rights in the mid-1960s after their first marriages to commoners. George continued to pay the appanages to his surviving aunts and Onkel Christian Sigismund who was "head" of the family until GF reached the age of 30, and it was at this time that GF gained his full inheritance, or what was left of it. "

So they all received something from their father--as for dowries, I don't know. Do they still do marriage settlements? Perhaps the homes formed part of that since they were given those before their father's death.
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