Author Topic: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family  (Read 116279 times)

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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #150 on: June 07, 2011, 06:59:04 PM »
  Attention Reply #88 and "Sara Araujo" :    I would be most interested in your source of your comments in Reply #88 please, since my recent understanding is that NONE of the bodies undergoing excavation have been POSITIVELY identified as "the remains of Grand Duke Paul, along with the other Grand Dukes."  To date, seven ("mass," I would assume) graves with a total of 110 people have been found. Are you perhaps referring to Paul Gilbert's site? In a VERY recent article there, it is stated that "the remains of some of the Grand Dukes......... MAY (emphasis mine) be among the finds."  This, in turn, was a quote from "The Saint Petersburg Times," June 1, 2011.  
  There is NO doubt that Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich, along with several other grand dukes were executed within the grounds of the Fortress, but I know of NO such identification of these specific Romanovs being published as yet. Thus I will look forward to your response with your source.                                                                                                                                                                 Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 07:26:05 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline bestfriendsgirl

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #151 on: June 07, 2011, 07:27:26 PM »
I've just read that the remais of Grand Duke Paul along with the other Grand Dukes who were murdered with him have just been discovered!
I hope they are the remains of Grand Duke Paul, et. al., and that they are given the proper burial that the Imperial Family was given after their remains were positively identified. May they all rest in peace!

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #152 on: June 07, 2011, 07:35:47 PM »
Re Post # 90:     I would certainly agree (and I like your inclusion "....positively identified"), but can you imagine trying to ultimately identify these specific individuals from at least 110 people (and I believe that the search contines for more burials)?  Short of finding some KNOWN personal effects/measurements, etc. with each remain, the ultimate (?) potential of specific identification would be DNA. However, as the article from "The Saint Petersburg Times" says:   "........the officials do not seem particularly interested in the issue," and the museum's project that has been conducting the excavations  "....has been refused financing for the continuation of the work."                                                     Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 07:59:43 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #153 on: June 08, 2011, 03:29:05 AM »
It would be a very good thing if all these 110 individuals were positively identified and buried under their proper names. But there are the inevitable practical difficulties. At least we can hope that they will have a proper funeral service and memorial, even if some remain unidentified.

Ann

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #154 on: June 08, 2011, 07:00:35 AM »
Hello, "Kalafrana"!  In reference to the last sentence of your Reply # 92, the article of June 1,2011 from the "St. Petersburg Times" (posted on Paul Gilbert's site) has this as their concluding remark:  "It is eventually planned to erect a memorial plaque on the site of the mass graves."    Best regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 07:06:49 AM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Carisbrooke

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #155 on: June 08, 2011, 07:05:04 AM »
       "The officials do not seem particularly interested in the issue"  #91

   I agree. Trying to get officialdom interested in any mass grave be it Romanov or not seems to be an ongoing problem. Its as though this is a part of Russian history they would like us all to forget. I am impressed however with the standard of archaeology shown by the amateur archaeologists. It demonstates that even without proper funding great results can be achieved. Perhaps the Grand Dukes remains along with the others can be identified by DNA, but if the interest from the authorities is lacking then I don't see what can be done ?

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #156 on: June 08, 2011, 10:57:22 AM »
On May 18, 1968, I dedicated myself to the idea that the bodies of the Imperial Family had not been destroyed as we had been told for the prior 50 years, and that they should have a decent Christian burial consistent with their beliefs as Orthodox Christians. At the time it must have seemed to the adults in my life that this was a strange and impossible dream for a teenager to have, but I've stuck to it for all the years since. I am neither wealthy nor powerful, but I have done everything in my power to make this happen. I have written letters. I have prayed. When I met Bob Atchison many years ago, I decided that being a part of this on-line presence for the Palace and the Family was a great way for someone ordinary like me to continue in my quest.

What I am trying to say is that officials at least in the case of my dream have meant little. It was ordinary people who found the first grave. Ordinary people who found the second. I have great faith in the people of Russia. None of these things will be sorted out fast enough for me, but now that I have added the 4 grand dukes who were shot in 1919 to my prayers, I am confident that at some time, this will all be resolved. Paul has living great grandchildren who are all fine people, and perhaps this will provide some of the resolution.

In other words, if you want this to happen, do more than wish. Hope and pray for the Grand Duke's burial and it might happen, as impossible as that may seem!

Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #157 on: June 10, 2011, 02:23:40 AM »
 Attention Reply #88 and "Sara Araujo" :    I would be most interested in your source of your comments in Reply #88 please, since my recent understanding is that NONE of the bodies undergoing excavation have been POSITIVELY identified as "the remains of Grand Duke Paul, along with the other Grand Dukes."  To date, seven ("mass," I would assume) graves with a total of 110 people have been found. Are you perhaps referring to Paul Gilbert's site? In a VERY recent article there, it is stated that "the remains of some of the Grand Dukes......... MAY (emphasis mine) be among the finds."  This, in turn, was a quote from "The Saint Petersburg Times," June 1, 2011.  
  There is NO doubt that Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich, along with several other grand dukes were executed within the grounds of the Fortress, but I know of NO such identification of these specific Romanovs being published as yet. Thus I will look forward to your response with your source.                                                                                                                                                                 Regards,  AP.

I've read it here: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g1g2fvm6KKfyFbWGwSgc5_b735UQ?docId=CNG.8f2f301f61aae92c02f30be901dcfd10.1611, but it's in Portuguese, I'll try to translate it shortly. :)
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Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #158 on: June 10, 2011, 03:15:23 AM »
Archaeologists believe that they have found the remains of more members of the Imperial Family

Saint Petersburg, Russia – A group of archaeologists believes that they have found the remains of members of the Russian Imperial Family who were executed by the bolcheviques  and buried in common graves that were found accidently at the Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg.

“Reliable sources have stated that the four Grand Dukes of the Romanov dynasty were killed in 1919 in this fortress. We believe that we have found the remains of Georgi Mikhailovich, Nikolai Mikhailovich, Dmitri Konstantinovich and Pavel Alexandrovich”, said Vladimir Kildiushevski, the responsible archaeologist for the excavations.

The remains of hundreds of other people shot by the communists had already been found at the same spot on other occasion.

Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovich Romanov was the uncle of the last Russian Tsar, Nicholas III, killed in the Urals by the Bolsheviks in 1918 along with his family. The other three victims were his cousins, grandchildren of Tsar Nicholas I.

The four Grand Dukes were killed in 1919 in the Peter and Paul Fortress, at the heart of the old capital of the Russian Empire, but the exact location of their graves had never been found.
The Bolsheviks killed countless people in the fortress, situated in the banks of the Neva River. It is there that all the Tsars from Peter, The Great onwards are buried.

Almost a century later, the accidental discovery of the remains during the restoration works in 2007 inspired new excavations.

Archeologists found six common graves which date back to 1917-1919 with the remains of hundreds of people, including young people of about 16-years-old at the time of their deaths.

“All the victims were murdered with a single shot to the head and the bodies were piled in common graves,” explained Vladimir Kildiushevski.

“Some skulls have distinct marks, as if they had received a blow with the butt of a gun,” he added.

The archeologist showed some objects found among the remains: glasses, a golden cross, cigarette cases, notebooks, pieces of clothing, a hat and a well-preserved shoe.

“They threw the older people, the civilians, to some graves and the younger people, of about 20 and 30 who were cadets at military schools, to others,” told the archeologist.
The deaths occurred during the “Red Terror” period, trigged by the Cheka and the army during the civil war of 1918-1923.

During these years, thousands of “enemies” – nobility, bourgeoisie, employers, priests, strikers and peasants – were killed in Russia.

“We are exterminating the bourgeoisie as a social class. Do not search for evidence that a defendant has acted against the soviet power with actions or words. The question that must be done is to which social class they belong. This question will determine their fate. This is the meaning of the red terror”, Martin Latsis, one of the heads of the Cheka, wrote in 1918.
It was Latsis who decided the death of the four Romanovs executed in Petrograd (the name given to St. Petersburg between 1914 and 1924 before it was renamed Leningrad from 1924 to 1991).

“We are now trying to determine exactly who was killed here and we intend to continue with the investigations. It is very likely that there are more remains,” said Kildiushevski, adding that he was sorry that the excavations – which are being carried out by the St. Petersburg Museum of History – were suspended due to the lack of funding.

[/i]
Natalie Paley website:

http://nataliepaley.webs.com/

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #159 on: June 10, 2011, 06:34:20 AM »
 Attention:  Reply #97 and "Sara Araujo":    Thank you for your reply with translation!  I'm not certain what is exactly your source (Portuguese newspaper/magazine, television report, etc. (?) ) and date.  The important thing is to note that your entire quoted article rests on the word "BELIEVE. "   Examples: " A group of archaeologists BELIEVES (emphasis mine) that they have found the remains of members of the Russian Imperial Family......."   The same tenor continues:   "We BELIEVE that we have found the remains of Georgi Mikhailovich, etc....."  And most importantly this:  " We are now trying to determine exactly who was killed here....."
   Please note:  NOWHERE does your quoted source say that the Grand Dukes have been POSITIVELY identified as a group or even separately !  Until then, it is incorrect to say that they HAVE been found.  There is NO proof of such at this moment.
   Again, I have NO doubt that the Grand Dukes were executed on the grounds of the fortress.  The last time I was there at the fortress, I brought my son and pointed out upon approaching an entrance gate:  "Many people passed through this gate, never to return."
  Thank you for your attempt/reply, however.                                                Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 06:56:56 AM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #160 on: June 15, 2011, 08:29:58 AM »
Pavel


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"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

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Offline bestfriendsgirl

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #161 on: July 14, 2011, 10:30:09 AM »

Alexandra suffered from complications during her second pregnancy - I believe it was eclampsia. I don't know why she didn't have better prenatal care, as pre-eclampsia is a known complication and is treated with bed rest. This could have saved her and in saving her, could have spared her family much grief.

The reason of her eclampsia were weak heart and kidneys, and this fact was discovered only after her death and autopsy.

Didn't Marie Pavlovna have issues with her kidneys too, as an adult?

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #162 on: July 14, 2011, 01:21:43 PM »

Alexandra suffered from complications during her second pregnancy - I believe it was eclampsia. I don't know why she didn't have better prenatal care, as pre-eclampsia is a known complication and is treated with bed rest. This could have saved her and in saving her, could have spared her family much grief.

The reason of her eclampsia were weak heart and kidneys, and this fact was discovered only after her death and autopsy.

Didn't Marie Pavlovna have issues with her kidneys too, as an adult?

Actually her kidneys were in a good state, that was Axel Munthe who tried to persuade Maria in her 'bad' kidneys. Other doctors didn't confirm Munthe's diagnosis.

Offline bestfriendsgirl

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #163 on: October 03, 2011, 12:30:59 PM »
Happy 151st Birthday Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich!  :)

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Grand Duke Pavel Alexandrovitch,his 1st wife Alexandra & their family
« Reply #164 on: October 03, 2011, 05:55:32 PM »
He seems younger than his 151!  ::)

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