Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova

[ashanti01]

Good point Ashdean,

It could be that Tatiana did spend much time with her parents traveling searching for a cure. Otherwise how else could one explain people not mentioning her as much as they mentioned Zenaida in thier youth? Sandro I'm sure would have remembered such a lovely girl had he had more interaction with her.

Didn't Zenaida have fragile health herself? I know she suffered a breakdown after the death of her son Nicholas. But I think she may have already had health issues before that. Then you can forget that Felix was a fragile child as well. Rather odd how the family was pledge with illness.

Another point you made, Ashdean was that it was the death of her parents and only surviving silbling which made her cling even more to her two surviving sons, and spoiled them rather badly

[Annie]

Good point Ashdean,

It could be that Tatiana did spend much time with her parents traveling searching for a cure. Otherwise how else could one explain people not mentioning her as much as they mentioned Zenaida in thier youth? Sandro I'm sure would have remembered such a lovely girl had he had more interaction with her.

Didn't Zenaida have fragile health herself? I know she suffered a breakdown after the death of her son Nicholas. But I think she may have already had health issues before that. Then you can forget that Felix was a fragile child as well. Rather odd how the family was pledge with illness.

Oh I never knew they traveled a lot. Maybe that's the answer, she was in Switzerland much of the time.M Thanks for the info. That could explain the ill health thing as well.

]quote]Another point you made, Ashdean was that it was the death of her parents and only surviving silbling which made her cling even more to her two surviving sons, and spoiled them rather badly [/quote]

Yes, and don't forget too that she lost 2 sons as infants between Nikolai and Felix, so that would make her even more overprotective.

In Felix's book he says when he was at Oxford, there were times she'd freak out and think he was dead and he had to rush to her side to prove he was alive. Poor thing.


[/quote]

[ashdean]

Another point worth mentioning is Felix never mentioned his fathers younger (and childless) sister Alexandra, she lived in exile in Rome till her death in 1936 and must have been in contact with her invalid brother till his death..perhaps she benefited from the Youssoupoff largesse....again there is nothing sinister about this...just she did not feature prominently in his life and thus did not rate a mention...

[Annie]

In the article about Marina de Hayden posted in that thread, it mentions that Zenaida's sister was 'thought to have killed herself.' I wonder if this info came from Marina, or who? However it also states incorrectly that Zenaida had lost 3 sons before Nicholas was born. That is not true! He was the first child, and there were two who died between him and Felix. So who knows if it's right, but I just wanted to pass this rumor along to see if anyone knew anything.

[ashanti01]

Yes I did note the incorrect information about Zenaida having had sons before NIcholas which was incorrect. Nicholas was her first child and it's known that she did have children after Nicholas but who all died as infants except for Felix.

The rumor of Tatiana having killed herself was mentioned awhile back in one of the threads but I can't remember which one. It appears that after her death, rumors were running around that the young girl had not died of an illness but had committed suicide. Considering how little is known of Tatiana, I doubt we will ever learn the actual events of her death, except that it was untimely. 

[Maria_Pavlovna]

Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her?

[ashdean]

Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her?

WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA "HER FAMILY ERASED HER FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH" !!!! She was buried among her family...a leading sculptor was commissioned to create a suitable monument  and I am sure she was often thought of or spoken of by her sister to friends or staff who had known her...she was certainly mentioned by Zenaida (in however brief a way) to Lady Georgiana Buchanan or her daughter Meriel when they lived near Zenaida in Rome in 1919-1921. My father died 20 years ago..I often think about him...daily...speak about him too but NOT DAILY.... even to my mother..you have to let the dead rest..Zenaida was no doubt like this..

[gugussey]

On page 121 of the Ferrand book, that author writes:  "Before the birth of Nicholas Felixovitch she (Zenaide) had three infants who died at "bas-age"...early age."   I realize that Jacques Ferrand is not infallible, but he is somewhat of a gold standard.

[Maria_Pavlovna]

Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her?

WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA "HER FAMILY ERASED HER FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH" !!!! She was buried among her family...a leading sculptor was commissioned to create a suitable monument  and I am sure she was often thought of or spoken of by her sister to friends or staff who had known her...she was certainly mentioned by Zenaida (in however brief a way) to Lady Georgiana Buchanan or her daughter Meriel when they lived near Zenaida in Rome in 1919-1921. My father died 20 years ago..I often think about him...daily...speak about him too but NOT DAILY.... even to my mother..you have to let the dead rest..Zenaida was no doubt like this..

All right! what ever, I don't really give a dam; I am not a historian for the Yussupovs, ok, it was only a thought!
becasue my cousin killed herself and her family didn't care! that why!

[Annie]

On page 121 of the Ferrand book, that author writes:  "Before the birth of Nicholas Felixovitch she (Zenaide) had three infants who died at "bas-age"...early age."   I realize that Jacques Ferrand is not infallible, but he is somewhat of a gold standard.

It was impossible, unless the children were all illegitimate. Remember that Zenaida and Old Felix were married in 1882. Nicholas was said by Felix to be 5 years older, and to have been 26 in 1908, meaning he was born later that year. The mini bio for Zenaida says he was born in 1882. Some claim Nicholas was born in 1883, however, even if that were so there is no way a married Zenaida could possibly have had 3 kids before Nicholas! If she had 3 babies before that, she was an unwed teen mother! Felix said the babies were between him and Nicholas, and that makes much more sense.

[Annie]

Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her?

WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA "HER FAMILY ERASED HER FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH" !!!! She was buried among her family...a leading sculptor was commissioned to create a suitable monument  and I am sure she was often thought of or spoken of by her sister to friends or staff who had known her...she was certainly mentioned by Zenaida (in however brief a way) to Lady Georgiana Buchanan or her daughter Meriel when they lived near Zenaida in Rome in 1919-1921. My father died 20 years ago..I often think about him...daily...speak about him too but NOT DAILY.... even to my mother..you have to let the dead rest..Zenaida was no doubt like this..

All right! what ever, I don't really give a dam; I am not a historian for the Yussupovs, ok, it was only a thought!
becasue my cousin killed herself and her family didn't care! that why!

I'm sorry about your cousin, Mandie ((hugs)) I know how sad it is to have someone be so sad they want to die, and then to have no one care.

In the olden days, more than not caring, it could have been because a suicide, like an illegitimate baby, was a 'shame' on the family and hidden, covered up and lied about. In the US, it is sad but some suicides are buried on 'unhallowed ground', I even know of one teenage girl whose tombstone is off the church grounds from the rest of the cemetary, with the tombstone facing backwards from all the others! Because the very mention of someone who had committed suicide would bring up this embarrassment, they might be unlikely to speak of her in public. I do believe Zenaida thought about her in private, though.

I guess this brings up the question of 'why.' Because Marina lived in those times, she may have heard something we don't know, something that has never survived in anyone's writings or memoirs. Marina, as you can tell my her story, was not one to stick up for the Y family, so she may spread something others concealed. This is speculation, but for all we know, it could be true. There have been many questions of her mental and physical health, if she did do it, maybe that was a reason why. Overall, I do find the story of this young girl very strange and clandestine  considering how much we know about so many others.

[ashanti01]

On page 121 of the Ferrand book, that author writes:  "Before the birth of Nicholas Felixovitch she (Zenaide) had three infants who died at "bas-age"...early age."   I realize that Jacques Ferrand is not infallible, but he is somewhat of a gold standard.

It was impossible, unless the children were all illegitimate. Remember that Zenaida and Old Felix were married in 1882. Nicholas was said by Felix to be 5 years older, and to have been 26 in 1908, meaning he was born later that year. The mini bio for Zenaida says he was born in 1882. Some claim Nicholas was born in 1883, however, even if that were so there is no way a married Zenaida could possibly have had 3 kids before Nicholas! If she had 3 babies before that, she was an unwed teen mother! Felix said the babies were between him and Nicholas, and that makes much more sense.

There's no question that Zenaida had given birth to more than two sons, however when presented with dates, I would have to agree w/ you, Annie and say that those boys were born between Nicholas and Felix.

It's not uncommon for information to get mixed up when some authors go off hear say, when there are little facts. Luckily more and more information is coming out, especially over the last few years. Think of all the wealth of information and pictures that have shown up lately? However it is sad to know that there's still so little information relating to two mystery 'persona's' in this tragic family...Tatiana and Nicholas. It seems we know enough to know that they were young, beautiful and tragic, but little else.. What I wouldn't give to be able to get into the Yussupov archives and research away.
 

[Annie]

Here's what Felix said in his memoirs:

My mother, who had already had three sons, two of whom had died in infancy, was so certain I would be a girl that she had ordered a pink layette for me.

So like you said people get things wrong, this is an example. He probably saw the 3 and didn't notice that Nicholas himself was one of the 3! Considering the date of the marriage (1882) and her age at marriage (20) and Nicholas being born in 1882 or possibly 83 (remember our discussion on this too!) there is no way in the world Zenaida had 3 babies before Nicholas unless she was an unwed teenage mother. There were 5 years between Nicholas and Felix, plenty of time for 2 babies to be born, and sadly die. Authors really should be more careful with info before they let things go to print in a nonfiction book. (this is also how the Gertrude half sister rumor got started in the AA controversy, a writer getting family dates and details wrong)

I agree with you about those archives! I hope you get to go someday, and me too! And I also hope for more interesting things to be found every day. I've been very excited about what has come out so far, and await more.

[Maria_Pavlovna]

It a fact: My mother, who had already had three sons, two of whom had died in infancy, was so certain I would be a girl that she had ordered a pink layette for me. why is everyone making a huge deal of it??!

Zenaide's children: (married in 1882)

1. Nicholas (born 1883)
2. Dead infant Son (1884?-5?)
3. second dead infant son (1885-6?)
4. Felix (1887)

Five years. it possible to have four children in five years (it takes 9 months to make and get out! 45 months is five years, 36 is four years).

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Five years. it possible to have four children in five years (it takes 9 months to make and get out! 45 months is five years, 36 is four years).

Yes it is possible to have four children in five years. My maternal granny had six children in six years, one born every year. In fact her 9th and 10th child were both born in the same year, her daughter was born in January 1940 (died Jan 1940) and her 10th child was born in December 1940.