Author Topic: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable?  (Read 33338 times)

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rskkiya

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2005, 03:58:31 PM »
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What is wrong in finding positive aspects of the Mongol rule in Russia. The influence from the East, although some find their rule barbaric,  at least organization and autonomy. The Russian eagle faces both East and West, so I think their are influences to be attributed from both influences. Also, through various means, Russian rulers came to eventual peace [admittedly at time tenuous] with the Islamic peoples. Sadly this has now been shattered with the breakup of the old USSR. Another inluence,. perhaps of taking a "western" approach to dealing with diversity ?


GREAT POINT!
  While Elizabeth is bound to cane me  ( ;) ;)) for this, I do think that there may be a wee bit of "Eurcentricity" in the basis of our comments.
This discussion is setting me back to my history texts and I will return with something "cogent" to say shortly!

rskkiya
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2005, 08:46:35 PM »
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You seem to like to blame the Romanovs for everything.  If you want to blame the Romanovs for decisions they made when they were in power, regardless of what came before, then why not blame Putin, Yeltsin, Stalin, Lenin, etc. for the decisions they made -- regardless of what came before.  We need to be consistent here.


Huh?  I have never said anything that indicates I give the post-Romanov rulers of Russia a pass on their actions.  I simply never extended my comments to encompass events subsequent to the fall of the Romanovs.

And I have not said that I blame the Romanovs "regardless of what came before."  My posts said that I think the recent past bears more heavily on the present than the distant past.  And I define the recent past in most cases as the past one or two centuries.  This does mean that I totally discount the more distant past but that I think intervening events tend to dilute the relevance of more distant events.

To give a perhaps extreme example -- I think the history of slavery in the U.S. bears heavily on the current state of race relations here.  I think the history of slavery in the ancient world reveals some universal aspects of human nature as it bears on the question of slavery, but I think it very difficult to pin our current dysfunctionality in race relations on Roman slavery.

As for blaming the Romanovs for everything . . . .  There were Romanovs and then there were Romanovs.  I am a great admirer of Peter I (despite the legitimate debate over whether he turned the evolution of Russia into an unnatural channel), Elizabeth, Catherine II, and most of the tsars before Ivan IV.  I think they were people built for their times.  I am a more muted admirer of Alexander I & II, but an admirer nonetheless.  I think the dynasty really went off track with Alexander III and Nicholas II.  In the unfortunate convergence of average capabilities and increased demands on the institution of autocracy in a modernizing society, I think they failed as none before them.  Granted, there were earlier failures, but those occurred at a time when the institution of autocracy itself was less in doubt.  So the consequences of the earlier failures were limited to the individuals themselves.  With Alexander III and Nicholas II, the consequences were to the institution as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2005, 09:25:11 PM »
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Tsarfan, I'm going to give you a hard time now, because I have to come to the defense of the Russian upper nobility. The first opponents of the tsarist regime came from its ranks. Many of the Decembrists were from prominent Russian aristocratic families. Even much later in the century, some of the leading proponents of liberal reform, such as Count Leo Tolstoy, came from ancient Russian noble families.


True.  But the point, to me, is that these things produced not a move toward more liberalism but rather a move toward more repression.  Nicholas I responded to the Decembrist revolt with a heightened police state.  Nicholas II responded to the Tolstoys of his reign with "senseless dreams" speeches.  And they both got by with it (at least for a time) because these movements remained on the fringe within the ruling classes.

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Again, I have to disagree, because IMO for centuries the Romanov ruler was the most civilizing force in the country. And again, Tsarfan, I regret to say it but I think your parallels with Western Europe get you into trouble because Russia was made up predominantly of peasants, and that population was not yet even literate, much less capable of formulating more sophisticated political concepts.


You are right when applying your point to the broad sweep of Romanov rule.  When I made my comments on this point, I was thinking specifically of Alexandra's rationalizing to herself and others that maintaining the autocracy was what the peasants wanted, as indicated by their responses to the Tercentenary tour, by what Rasputin told her, and by what the telegrams forged by the Interior Ministry assured her to be the case.  I did not mean to say the peasants themselves exerted the counterweight.  I meant that the counterweight was what Nicholas and Alexandra asserted was the sense of the "real" Russian people, i. e., the peasants.  In fact, I think I said the Romanovs "exploited those attitudes".

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I don't think RichC, Silja and I are arguing that early Russian history foreordained subsequent history. I think all we are saying is that it made some outcomes more likely, and others less likely. Look at it this way: to argue that the West was not shaped to a large extent by the Renaissance and Reformation would be a mistake, would it not? And those phenomena were not initiated by any one person or great leader. I think therein lies the point.


I agree with all your points here.  However, I never argued that the West was not signficantly shaped by the Renaissance and Reformation.  What I did argue is that they do not explain significant parts of subsequent western history.  For instance, to trace 20th-century fascism -- and Hitler's rise to power, in particular -- back to these movements gets very convoluted.  I'm sure it can be done.  I've watched enough Arthur Clarke to understand that almost anything can be connected to almost anything with enough cleverness.  But the threads get more tenuous the further they extend back in time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline RichC

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2005, 10:36:12 PM »
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Huh?  I have never said anything that indicates I give the post-Romanov rulers of Russia a pass on their actions.  I simply never extended my comments to encompass events subsequent to the fall of the Romanovs.


Tsarfan, I apologize.  I realize my post was a bit hyperbolic, so I'm sorry.  I run a customer service call center during the day, so my daytime posts are often a bit slap-dash and poorly worded.  I'm sure one of these days I'm going to get caught.  I also confess I was pushing the envelope a little (at your expense!)  

But I was referring to something you said earlier about Russia not being able to find it's way today because of mistakes the Tsars made; and also another (earlier) post about Tsarism's disastrous legacy to Russia.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree for now.  While I do believe that there are individuals in history who singlehandedly made a difference, like Peter the Great, I think that the legacy of Nicholas II is only one of many causes of Russia's current, seemingly intractable problems.  I think the causes reach back far into the distant past and encompass more than just history; they include culture, religion and geography.

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And I have not said that I blame the Romanovs "regardless of what came before."  My posts said that I think the recent past bears more heavily on the present than the distant past.  And I define the recent past in most cases as the past one or two centuries.  This does mean that I totally discount the more distant past but that I think intervening events tend to dilute the relevance of more distant events.


To return to the Mongol invasion, I believe it cast a long shadow because it was such a huge catastrophe.  Their legacy was one of death and destruction.  

The Roman Empire ended in 476 A.D. but it too has cast a long shadow over European History, despite the passage of time.  Things that happened a long time ago can still loom large in today's world.




Robert_Hall

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2005, 10:53:59 PM »
Again, I ask- just why was the Mongol influence  a "catastrophe" ?  They were certainly no more vicious than any "Western"  war lords.  You all seem to take this episode in Russian history as a negative ascpect while I am seeing it as a very influencial in a perhaps positive light.
I know you have said this "old" theorem has been debunked.  Perhaps some old attitudes need to be dusted off ?

hikaru

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2005, 11:45:42 PM »
There is a new theory by Dr. Phomenko that there were not Mongol occupation at all.
Mongols played a role of the border guards of Russia.
I am not stating that this is a right.
But now this theory is very popular.
Did you hear about it?

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2005, 04:54:55 AM »
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Tsarfan, I apologize.  I realize my post was a bit hyperbolic, so I'm sorry.  I run a customer service call center during the day, so my daytime posts are often a bit slap-dash and poorly worded.  I'm sure one of these days I'm going to get caught.  I also confess I was pushing the envelope a little (at your expense!)


No apology necessary, RichC.  I do the same thing on both counts -- write quickly from a harried job and engage in hyberbole to keep a little piquancy in the debate.  I think it keeps the discussion lively.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Elisabeth

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2005, 07:25:06 AM »
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There is a new theory by Dr. Phomenko that there were not Mongol occupation at all.
Mongols played a role of the border guards of Russia.
 I am not stating that this is a right.
But now this theory is very popular.
Did you hear about it?


No, Hikaru, I've never heard of Dr. Phomenko's theory, how interesting! It raises a lot of questions, for example, how does he explain the taxes and tributes the Mongols demanded? To me it sounds like a very far-fetched theory.

Robert, I didn't mean to imply that you are alone in asserting that Mongol rule might have been less damaging to Russia than previously believed, and in fact might have been positively beneficial in some aspects. It's just the minority view among historians, which doesn't make it any less valid as an argument. I had to read a book for a college course in Russian history, Russia and the Golden Horde: The Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History, by Charles J. Halperin, which theorized, among other things, that Mongol rule was beneficial to Russian trade (at least with the Orient) and that the average Russian was not even aware that his country was being occupied. My professor elicited our views of the book and then proceeded to demolish it point by point. I guess what I am trying to say is that I have given this issue a lot of thought, and am not just talking off the top of my head.

Might I also note that as yet you have not offered anything concrete in terms of the benefits to Russia that might have proceeded from Mongol rule, except to say that it might have brought greater order to the country (how? the Mongols were not known for their administrative talents - they were a nomadic warrior people), and improved relations between the religions (in what way? since the Mongols were conquerors and the Russians were mere vassals). Can you back up your statements with any facts?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

Robert_Hall

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2005, 07:26:36 AM »
Thank you, Hikaru. I had heard this discussed on the radio but could not remember  where it came from. Like you, I do not know whether or not to follow this theory [Mongols Russia's "border guards"] but I find it very interesting.

Elisabeth

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2005, 11:40:32 AM »
Another thought: why is it that no one ever argues that the Mongol invasion was beneficial to the Chinese? Maybe because the Chinese were so demonstrably superior in organization and culture to the Mongols?

Indeed, I don't think there's anything "Eurocentric" about the theory that the Mongols did untold harm to the historical development of Russia. Just because the Mongols happened to be Asian in origin did not make them automatically superior or inferior to the Russians. After all, we are talking about a very specific culture here, the Mongol culture, not the culture of "Asians" in general (which I defy anyone to summarize briefly - the attempt in and of itself would be chauvinistic, since it would "smooth over" enormous variations for the sake of being politically correct, i.e. "All Asians are...").

Offline RichC

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2005, 12:12:07 PM »
Well I looked at the Encyclopedia Britannica online and it says the the devastation caused by the Mongol invasion has been overstated.  Here's two paragraphs:

"Many of the conquered cities made a striking recovery and adjustment to the new relationships. Some towns, such as Kiev, never fully recovered in Mongol times, but the cities of the Vladimir-Suzdal region clearly prospered. New centres, such as Moscow and Tver, hardly mentioned in any source before the Mongol period, arose and flourished in Mongol times."

"Thus, the Mongol invasion was not everywhere a catastrophe. The local princely dynasties continued unchanged in their traditional seats; some princes resisted the new authority and were killed in battle, but no alien princes ever became established in Slavic territory. Few Mongols remained west of the Urals after the conquest; political and fiscal administration was entrusted to the same Turkic clan leaders and Islamic merchants who had for generations operated in the area. The whole of the Novgorodian north remained outside the sphere of direct Tatar control, although the perspicacious burghers maintained correct relations with the khans."

From Encyclopedia Britannica Online.





rskkiya

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2005, 03:31:16 PM »
Lets rethink the whole  GOOD MONGOL/ BAD MONGOL/GOOD INVADER/ BAD INVADER complex and consider this problem ...Many nations have been 'invaded' but not all of these were altogether detrimental... WHY?

Two exanples of such invasions and the different ways that they were handled historically ...

       England was invaded in 1066 by the Norman French, but eventually the two cultures blended into what today passes for  ;) Brittish Civilization  ;) . Yet I cannot suggest that  Anglo-Saxon culture was so inferior to that of the Normans, nor were the religions that divergent, of course it wasn't all a 'teddy bears picknick' but after 150 -200 years things seemed to working out for the best. Why?

    The other example would be the Moors in Spain. Muslims brought algebra  ;D baths, superiour architecture and education to Spain for more than 200 years but the ReConquista conpleated by dear old Isabella and Ferdinand in the late 1400 did its best to marginalize and finally dispose of this influence. Why?

Why were these two European situations so different?    
Any ideas?
{This might give us new insite into the paradox of Russian History...}


rskkiya

Elisabeth

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2005, 07:03:41 AM »
I can't speak about Spanish history, but I know Silja has studied it extensively, and perhaps she can give us some insights into the Moorish regime in Spain and its eventual demise at the hands of Ferdinand and Isabella. What little I remember from my High Middle Ages course in college agrees with what Rskkiya has outlined - the Moors had a very flourishing culture, tolerant of all religions, outstanding in mathematics and architecture. They preserved much of the ancient Greek learning that was lost in western Europe after the fall of Rome. How much of this culture was allowed to remain after the Spanish (re)conquest? We know religious toleration at least did not survive. The Jews were expelled, and weren't the Moors also?

The Norman Conquest was a whole different ballgame, from what I remember. There was a lot of cultural blending between the conquerors and the conquered. I think this is a situation that can arise when two cultures that are relatively equal in sophistication and complexity meet. The Normans and Anglo-Saxons were of the same religion and the same race, too, important factors which shouldn't be discounted. (This wasn't the case in either Spain or Russia.) The Normans took over the machinery of government but nevertheless preserved many Anglo-Saxon monarchical institutions: the chancery, chamber, the geld, sheriff, the fyrd, shire and hundred courts. In other words there was a great deal of continuity between the old and the new regimes. There was also extensive intermarriage between the two peoples. Not that conflicts and inequities didn't arise - for example the status of women in Norman Britain changed for the worse. But my overall impression is that the Norman Conquest was not even remotely as traumatic as the Mongol conquest of Russia.

First of all, the Mongol invasion was extremely violent - they levelled entire cities, burned libraries, killed most of the inhabitants and dragged the rest off into slavery. Once they had established their rule they kept pretty much to themselves. As I recall there was little or no intermarriage. The two cultures simply did not mix, although I remember reading that the Mongols did extend their toleration of Orthodoxy even to the point of occasionally patronizing (i.e. funding) the Orthodox Church. I suspect this was a recognition that the Church was as effective a means of controlling the population as any other. But overall the Mongols remained the occupiers, and the Russians the occupied. The lack of cultural blending may be reflected in the relatively small number of Tartar words in the Russian language - and tellingly, many of them have to do with accounting, e.g., the word for money, "dengi."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

rskkiya

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2005, 09:02:14 AM »
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The Norman Conquest was a whole different ballgame, from what I remember. There was a lot of cultural blending between the conquerors and the conquered. I think this is a situation that can arise when two cultures that are relatively equal in sophistication and complexity meet. The Normans and Anglo-Saxons were of the same religion and the same race, too, important factors which shouldn't be discounted. (This wasn't the case in either Spain or Russia.) The Normans took over the machinery of government but nevertheless preserved many Anglo-Saxon monarchical institutions: the chancery, chamber, the geld, sheriff, the fyrd, shire and hundred courts. In other words there was a great deal of continuity between the old and the new regimes. There was also extensive intermarriage between the two peoples. Not that conflicts and inequities didn't arise - for example the status of women in Norman Britain changed for the worse. But my overall impression is that the Norman Conquest was not even remotely as traumatic as the Mongol conquest of Russia.

 

Ummm :-X :-X
   I think that any invasion is inheirently violent and thus 'traumatic' - so we cannot let the Normans off there.... also the "race" comment is very problematic...
   Intermarriage happened amongst the Saxons and the Normans but after some time, certainly not right away! (Ding dong ... Hullo Mrs Saxon, My name is Guy, I and my lads just conquered you.... Ummmm, I was wondering - might I marry you daughter Eathgylda please?)
    Why was such social interaction NOT more prevalent under the Moors, and thus under the Mongols?

rs
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Russia's History vs. the West . . . Comparable
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2005, 10:32:15 AM »
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The lack of cultural blending may be reflected in the relatively small number of Tartar words in the Russian language - and tellingly, many of them have to do with accounting, e.g., the word for money, "dengi."


I'm sorry to say I know nothing of Russian etymology, but your observation raises an interesting point.  Some historians view the evolution of language as a useful measurement of how one culture influenced another.

The total vocabulary of modern English is overwhelmingly Latin in derivation (as high as 90% by some analyses), with much of it coming in through French.  But the words most frequently used in everyday life are predominantly Germanic in origin, as are the syntax and structure of the language.

For instance, the English words for house, door, man, husband, wife, cheese, milk, bread, bed, bath, jacket, hair, etc., are derived from the Germanic.  But when you move toward things that touched on upper-class life, you see the French influence exerting itself.  English is unusual in having two names for many things, and it almost always occurs with words that reflected the intersection of Norman and Saxon life.  For instance, in the capital-intensive parts of animal husbandry or hunting, you can detect the native English tending the affairs of their Norman overlords and developing dual vocabulary:  cow and beef, swine and pork, hound and dog.

In government, the terms for the lower officials tend to be Old English in derivation (sheriff) while the terms for nobility tend to be French in derivation (count, duke).

This reflects a vastly greater influence on the affairs of everyday people deriving from the Norman invasion of England than was derived from the Mongol invasion of Russia.  I understand that Norman culture was more similar to Saxon culture in some ways than Mongol culture was to Russian culture.  But the point is that Mongol culture actually touched Russian culture but little . . . and this makes it hard for me to blame the Mongol invasion for so much of what happened in subsequent Russian history.

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But my overall impression is that the Norman Conquest was not even remotely as traumatic as the Mongol conquest of Russia.

First of all, the Mongol invasion was extremely violent - they levelled entire cities, burned libraries, killed most of the inhabitants and dragged the rest off into slavery.


This is true, but I think another comparison is relevant.  Western Europe was as traumatized by the Black Death as Russians were by the Mongols.  And they felt themselves to be as much under attack by unseen forces as the Russians felt themselves to be attacked by raging horsemen.  Vast stretches of Europe were depopulated by as much as half.  Studies of maps and land records before and after the peak of the Black Death indicate the complete abandonment of countless villages and even entire towns.  The European economy was dislocated for almost a century by the shortage of labor to produce crops, craft production plummeted for decades, and inflation and unemployment precipitated one financial crisis after another.

Today the most visible heritage of these 14th-century events is games like ring-around-the-rosy and some colorful terms relating to death and desolation.  Despite the Black Death, the High Middle Ages moved on to the Renaissance and from there to the Enlightenment, the concepts reflected in Magna Carta continued to evolve toward constitutional government, the Reformation addressed fundamental questions about the role of the Church in the spiritual affairs of the individual.  

It has been implied, if not asserted, that the Mongol invasion caused Russia to miss out on the High Middle Ages and the Renaissance and all the good that flowed from them.  But did it really?  Might Russia have chosen anyway not to take those paths for reasons entirely her own?  In fact, is that perhaps exactly what happened?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »