Author Topic: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna  (Read 173013 times)

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Bryan von reyes

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #165 on: May 10, 2009, 01:23:44 AM »
HI David Pritchard Im a fan of the Grand Duchess and i hope that you will post out of kindness more pictures of her. Photographs of her are rare and YOU made me happy by posting some of her pictures here. I can see the Remarkable resemblance of The Grand Duchess and Queen Victoria.  Any news about the grand duchess? have a great day!

Offline pookiepie

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2010, 08:19:49 PM »
Switching topics a bit here, a few weeks ago at church they made an announcement that Maria was going to come to the sobor in san francisco to venerate the relics of st. John. Has anybody heard anything about this? Supposedly, she will be there at the end of April.

Margot

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #167 on: February 26, 2010, 06:14:45 PM »
Tchelogovitov ruled that because Maria Pavlovna (elder) was NOT Pravoslavnaya when her children were born, under the laws of succession they were excluded. Somewhere in GARF is his report on the subject to Nicholas II. This whole statement is a waste of time and bid for attention from Georgie who has nothing anyway.

yawn indeed.


I lifted this marvelously pertinent post and pasted it here because it so beautifully and succinctly highlights the absurdity of seeing MV swanning about in her delusions of 'Imperial' grandeur! I also note that, if her son George Prince of Prussia does the unspeakable and marries a commoner, his mother would apparently simply have her minions and courtiers rustle up a new 'ukase' for her to scribble her name on in order to change the family rules again and make sure her son keeps his place as her heir! I was gobsmacked when I read this rather airily written explanation of how MV would solve such a dilemma on the Wives for George thread! In a way, I really do hope Her (self styled) Imperial Highness will be forced to put her signature to such a document as it will really highlight just how ludicrous and hollow her pretensions as self proclaimed Matriarch and Head of the Family are!

 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 06:30:01 PM by Margot »

kmerov

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #168 on: February 26, 2010, 07:09:40 PM »
Hi Margot, interesting post. Who is Tchelogovitov? And why then was the Vladimiroviches (I'm no fan of them by the way) listed in the court calender as dynasts in the reign of Nicholas II?
I don't think that marrying a comoner in these days can be considered "doing the unspeakable", even in the Romanov family. It's not the case in the current reigning Royal Families, who use to have strict rules regarding equal marriages. Why would her signing a ukase show her pretensions as Head of the Family to be ludicrous?

Margot

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #169 on: February 26, 2010, 07:59:20 PM »
Kmerov I too have not been able to identify who Tchelogovitov was yet! I have no idea why the Vladimirovichi would have continued to have been listed as Dynasts if the findings were accepted! As FA was the author of the source I naturally feel that the issue has been researched quite thoroughly and stands up under scrutiny.

I can't bare MV flouncing around like something akin to a frightfully vulgar and desperate Suburban Matron who never knows when to stop applying her maquillage with a trowel or when to start behaving in a manner befitting to her self proclaimed position, rather than ceaselessly seeking attention for herself and her precious son

As to the ludicrousness of MV signing a Ukase in order to permit her son to marry a commoner. I personally feel that it would reek of hypocrisy unless MV inserted a retroactive clause that would subsequently make all unequal marriages contracted by dynast after 1919 'equal' in line with the re-writing of the rules to suit herself and her son!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 08:11:11 PM by Margot »

kmerov

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #170 on: February 26, 2010, 08:25:23 PM »
I can't bare MV flouncing around like something akin to a vulgar and desperate Suburban Matron who never knows when to stop applying her maquillage with a trowel or when to start behaving in a manner befitting to her self proclaimed position, rather than ceaselessly seeking attention for herself and her precious son

Margot, your posts are a pleasure to read, regardless of our differences of opinion! :)
Ok, maybe FA can explain who he was, or someone else for that matter, but interesting!

I don't know if I feel the same way about making all marriags after 1919 equal. Most of the Romanovs acknowledged their marriages as being morganatic, because that was the times and the House Laws. Changing the House Laws and issuing Ukases regarding the IF is a prerogative of the Head of the House, and I feel that in this case most people would do the same as MV.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 08:28:10 PM by kmerov »

Margot

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #171 on: February 26, 2010, 08:41:39 PM »
Kmerov you are too kind!

MV just gets into my craw! In the same way her grandfather provokes a similar sensation. I only suggested the retroactive clause, as a piece of mischief and because I think it would only be fair to do so! It would be the most magnanimous and family orientated gesture MV could ever carry out! As Head of the House, MV has so much power in her manicured claws but I very much doubt she will ever use any of it in a positive familial way!

The more I hear about MV the more she reminds me of her ravenously power hungry great grand mother the grasping Marie Pavlovna!

« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 08:46:28 PM by Margot »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #172 on: February 26, 2010, 10:24:48 PM »
Kmerov you are too kind!

MV just gets into my craw! In the same way her grandfather provokes a similar sensation. I only suggested the retroactive clause, as a piece of mischief and because I think it would only be fair to do so! It would be the most magnanimous and family orientated gesture MV could ever carry out! As Head of the House, MV has so much power in her manicured claws but I very much doubt she will ever use any of it in a positive familial way!

The more I hear about MV the more she reminds me of her ravenously power hungry great grand mother the grasping Marie Pavlovna!

Margot, I understand how you feel. I have always been more in sympathy with the RFA and their stance that the Romanovs should help Russia as much as they can, and not worry about a restoration of the monarchy.

That said, I have come to respect the sincerity with which the Grand Duchess does her work as Head of the Imperial House. I don't see her as power hungry as much as bound by tradition. She has been a single parent for quite a long time, and having done that myself for a number of years, I can't dismiss her without giving her credit for raising her son to be a responsible adult.

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #173 on: February 26, 2010, 10:39:13 PM »
Hi Margot & Lisa,

Now-a-days most royal marriages are pretty much 'morganatic'...
After WWI, princes & princesses married commoners.  As we know, in the British Royal Family, Princes Albert (York) & Henry (Gloucester) married ladies of the Realm.  And, Princess Mary married a Viscount.  Even Prince George (Kent) marrying Princess marina could be considered morganatic, since Greece had banished its ruler(s) at the time of that wedding.

And, with the Hapsburgs, Hohenzollerns and Romanovs all thrown out of their own countries, they were now morganatic souls too!!

I personally really don't champion a candidate for the Russian monarchy;  but I do favour Maria Vladimirovna simply because Lisa Davidson and Arturo Beeche do - and they know more about the subject than I do...

Larry
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 10:41:55 PM by Vecchiolarry »

Margot

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #174 on: February 26, 2010, 11:14:12 PM »
General Alexander Spiridovitch, Chief of Secret Security Police to the Emperor, in his Memoirs states as a matter of fact that Nicholas II asked Minister of Justice Tcheglovitov to prepare a report about succession rights to the Valdimirovich descendants.  The report stated without a question that because Maria Pavlovna was not Pravoslavnaya on the day she was married, her children had no succession rights.  The Ukaze issued by Alexander II giving consent when Vladimir married Maria Pavlovna stipulated specifically that ONLY Vladimir kept his rights, not his children.  Tcheglovitov was clear in the report that none of the Vladimirovtichi had succession rights to the Imperial Russian Throne because her adoption of Orthodoxy decades later was not "retroactive" because her sons were born to a non Pravoslavnaya mother.  I hope that this document still might exist in GARF and one day it will be found. Spiridovitch was most clear that there were THREE copies of his report, one for Nicholas II, one was sent to Maria Pavlovna, and the third retained in his records.


I am so glad I found FA's explanation about the issue of Maria Pavlovna's status with regards to Orthodoxy on another thread!

Benjamin

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #175 on: February 27, 2010, 12:12:57 AM »
Maria Vladimirovna's rank is only disputed by the two elderly sons of Roman Petrovich and several descendants of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich.

Regardless of whether or not you accept that HIH Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia is the Head of the Imperial House of Romanov, the fact is that the vast majority of the Royal Houses of Europe (specifically: the Spanish Royal Family, the Belgian Royal Family, the French Royal Family, the Greek Royal Family, the Portuguese Royal Family, the Bulgarian Royal Family, the Serbian Royal Family, the Romanian Royal Family, the Prussian Royal Family, the Wurttemberg Royal Family, and the Albanian Royal Family) as well as the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Government recognize her as such. That is what matters.

Sometimes it seems as though most people who oppose Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's role as Head of the Imperial House only do so out of a deep-seated and frankly irrational dislike either of her or of her ancestors, and not because they can get the Fundamental Laws to support their claims.

kmerov

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #176 on: February 27, 2010, 05:44:20 PM »
General Alexander Spiridovitch, Chief of Secret Security Police to the Emperor, in his Memoirs states as a matter of fact that Nicholas II asked Minister of Justice Tcheglovitov to prepare a report about succession rights to the Valdimirovich descendants.  The report stated without a question that because Maria Pavlovna was not Pravoslavnaya on the day she was married, her children had no succession rights.  The Ukaze issued by Alexander II giving consent when Vladimir married Maria Pavlovna stipulated specifically that ONLY Vladimir kept his rights, not his children.  Tcheglovitov was clear in the report that none of the Vladimirovtichi had succession rights to the Imperial Russian Throne because her adoption of Orthodoxy decades later was not "retroactive" because her sons were born to a non Pravoslavnaya mother.  I hope that this document still might exist in GARF and one day it will be found. Spiridovitch was most clear that there were THREE copies of his report, one for Nicholas II, one was sent to Maria Pavlovna, and the third retained in his records.


I am so glad I found FA's explanation about the issue of Maria Pavlovna's status with regards to Orthodoxy on another thread!


Thanks for finding the explanation. However, I do not think that Spiridovich (when did he write his memoirs? and how did he view the Vladimirovichi in general?)  writting about someone else who made a report, that is somewhere in the GARF is the ultimate valid source on the matter. Especially considering that all the Vladimirovichi were listed in the court calender as being dynasts until the very end of  Imperial times. This, and the fact that the Fundemental Law does allow dynasts who are not direct heirs to marry someone who is not an Orthodox, and the law does not mention their children being excluded from the succession, leaves room for doubt.
I have never heard of the Konstantinovichi branch not being dynasts despite GDss Elizaveta Mavrikievna being a Lutheran, and I think that Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna had to renounce her succession right before her marriage.

Offline Marc

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #177 on: February 27, 2010, 08:18:47 PM »
Kmerov,you got the point...how come the Vladimirovichi who were not direct heirs but were very closer to throne were supposed to be excluded from succession rights and Konstantinovichi who were not that close were not excluded by the same system...and Maria Pavlovna and Elizaveta Mavrikievna both being Lutheran...

If there was an prepared report by Nicholas II it could have more personal meaning regarding Maria Pavlovna's ambitions...

Offline Belochka

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #178 on: February 27, 2010, 08:57:32 PM »
...  the fact is that the vast majority of the Royal Houses of Europe (specifically: the Spanish Royal Family, the Belgian Royal Family, the French Royal Family, the Greek Royal Family, the Portuguese Royal Family, the Bulgarian Royal Family, the Serbian Royal Family, the Romanian Royal Family, the Prussian Royal Family, the Wurttemberg Royal Family, and the Albanian Royal Family) ... recognize her as such.

Excluding one or two Families from your list, we are talking about people who pretend to the throne. International recognition by other pretenders has nothing to do with who is actually the head of the Romanov Family. The two cliques must resolve the matter first.

Sometimes it seems as though most people who oppose Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's role as Head of the Imperial House only do so out of a deep-seated and frankly irrational dislike either of her or of her ancestors, and not because they can get the Fundamental Laws to support their claims.

There are no legally binding Imperial Fundamental Laws. That body of law was made defunct after Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich rescinded the Crown.

Kirill breached his Oath of Allegience and that is a fact. What followed years later, in a foreign jurisdiction has no legal relevance.

The emergence of Kirill's pretend crown along with his rules allowed his family through the generations to continue playing the same game.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 09:02:58 PM by Belochka »


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Benjamin

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #179 on: March 02, 2010, 01:34:49 PM »

Excluding one or two Families from your list, we are talking about people who pretend to the throne. International recognition by other pretenders has nothing to do with who is actually the head of the Romanov Family.


Very well, but you excluded the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Government from your reply. This is because both address Maria Vladimirovna as HIH Grand Duchess of Russia? A title she was also accorded by government officials from Australia to Belarus to Transdniestria to Turkey.

Some would disagree that recognition by the European Gotha counts for nothing in such matters, but we are all entitled to our own opinions.  : - )

« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 01:37:02 PM by Benjamin »