Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna

[Marc]

True,but if you read carefully you will see that he said "daughter of an Illustrious Highness" which automatically means that she comes from a mediatized line,not just from countly one...and even a Catholic if she were to convert to Orthodoxy it would have been possible...So,saying this Prince Nicholas said that Russian IF followed Gotha rules and just made an EXAMPLE in order that a reader with common knowledge would understand his point.

Maria Kirillovna was married to Prince von Leiningen and that marriage was as far as I know regarded as equal...

My point is also the same as yours regarding Bagration family...but again,they were Russian subjects just like other Russian noble families that were descendants of Rurik dynasty...formal recognition of Bagration family as equal would lead to recognition of many other families who were male line descendants of former ruling dynsty(regardless of time when they ruled) and this could open a Pandora's box in Russian nobility...

My thought is that Emperor Nicholas II understood the whole system which was very complex and unofficially recognized Bagrations as equal by allowing their member to sign as "Prince Grudzinsky" but didn't want to recognize them officially in order to avoid many other families with same qualifications who would want the same based on the facts that they are also Russian subjects and also descendants of former ruling family...

That's why I said that out of all families with whom Russian male dynasts made union after Revolution Bagration is the one with most chances to be equal as a former ruling ROYAL family(makes them stand out compared to,for example Strudza's who were just former ruling PRINCELY family like many other who became Russian subjects later) who reigned until 19th century...

[PAVLOV]

If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.

[Marc]

As long as there are pretenders this subject will not run out of steam for sure...it is unlikely that they will ever reinstate a ruling family,but can you imagine "the fight" if one person from old noble family is elected as an Emperor...every other family would try to put their member to the throne and there would be much more pretenders than there are today from just one exiled family...

[kmerov]

Not quite:
The new ruling from Nicholas II following discussions with Tatiana's father resulted in the much disputed edict that implied that unlike a Grand Duke or Grand Duchess a Prince or Princess of the blood could marry unequally - the debate has always been whether such a marriage enabled the said Prince or Princess to pass their rights to the issue of such a union.
However like his niece Irena, Tatiana was required to renounce her rights to the succession on her marriage which implied that they couldn't.

Effectively the Bagration's were not regarded as equal in in pre revolutionary Russia but Nicholas didn't believe that such a marriage should deprive Tatiana of her rank as a Princess of Russia just her rights to the succession.

I get the impression that Vladimir's view before and after his marriage was that the Romanov's being dispossessed of their throne put them technically in the same bracket as the Bagrations!

It was not uncommon for women of the IF to renounce their rights to the throne when they married. That doesn't say anything about the question of Princess Tatianas marriage being equal or not. Nicholas II never made an officiel statement about this. He said to KR in private that he would never consider the marriage to be unequal.

[kmerov]

If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.

If you feel that this subject has run out of steam, then stop posting in this thread.

[Belochka]

If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.

If you feel that this subject has run out of steam, then stop posting in this thread.

The monarchy has had its run in Russia. There is absolutely not one rational reason why it should become part of Russia's political landscape again.

[PAVLOV]

Kmerov
 
This has become a boring subject, and it is like flogging a dead horse. Most people will agree with me. It has become an endless and boring debate. My humblest apologies if you do not agree with me. Everything runs out of steam eventually.

[kmerov]

If, in the unlikely event that the Russians ever want to reinstate a ruling family, I think they should start afresh, and choose a member from one of the old aristocratic families. The Romanovs appear to have run out of steam, and so has this subject.

If you feel that this subject has run out of steam, then stop posting in this thread.

The monarchy has had its run in Russia. There is absolutely not one rational reason why it should become part of Russia's political landscape again.

Yes, I understand and agree with you 100 %. But my post was in regard to a poster finding a discussion in this thread about "GDss" Maria Vladimirovna boring, but at the same time was giving his opinion on the matter, and thus continuing the discussion.

[kmerov]

Kmerov
 
This has become a boring subject, and it is like flogging a dead horse. Most people will agree with me. It has become an endless and boring debate. My humblest apologies if you do not agree with me. Everything runs out of steam eventually.

Whether I agree or not about the subject being boring and like flogging a dead horse is not the issue.
If one finds a subject or a thread boring, then the most logical (at least to me) thing to do is not to post in the thread, which was why I wrote too you. I find many threads boring beyond words (and this discussion too sometimes), and therefore I don't post in these threads. If other people find it interesting enough to post it's their choice, unless a moderator for what ever reason feels the need to intervene.

Many people posting about MV and about her "rights" also give their opinions about the Succession Laws and how to read them, which was being done here. If you personally find discussions about this and MV in general boring and irrelevant, simply ignore the thread.

[Michael HR]

The argument will never cease, unless someone actually ascends the throne. There are those who support her, those who do not and those who might support someone else. The argument is endless and everyone will have a view, such as mine being that we should adhere to the wish of HIH GD Michael in his manifesto of 1917. However, reading the threads on the GD and others I have learnt a great deal about the succession question which I would not have learnt elsewhere, so there is always a good side to things.

I promise it has not run out of steam, just needs stoking from time to time to liven up the embers.

[kmerov]

The argument will never cease, unless someone actually ascends the throne. There are those who support her, those who do not and those who might support someone else. The argument is endless and everyone will have a view, such as mine being that we should adhere to the wish of HIH GD Michael in his manifesto of 1917. However, reading the threads on the GD and others I have learnt a great deal about the succession question which I would not have learnt elsewhere, so there is always a good side to things.

I promise it has not run out of steam, just needs stoking from time to time to liven up the embers.

You are right and that will never happend. And yes, discussions like these can sometimes help to at least understand some of the succession laws and clear up mistakes made about what the Pauline laws actually said. Whether or not you feel they are relevant after 1917, which is another matter.

My position is as stated many times that MV is Head of the Romanov Family, and as such is the Romanov heir to a defunct throne. Not the most relevant issue of the world today, but sometimes fun to discuss, nothing more, nothing less.

As regards to GD Mikhail Alexandrovich's manifesto, I feel many things about the way it came about and the aftermath, for which I could go on and on, but basically I don't feel that the manifesto is relevant to who is Head of the Family.

[TimM]

I think that if, and that is a big IF, the monarchy ever does come back in Russia, it will be a constitutional monarchy, like the British one.  The Tsar will be a figurehead, and will have no more political power than Queen Elizabeth II does.  The days of absolute monarchies in Europe are long over, and they won't be coming back.

[PAVLOV]

O. K. I am going to stir the pot. I think Prime Minister Putin would make a good Tsar. He is practically the Tsar already, all but in name.
He has Russia firmly under his thumb and appears to know what he is doing. Russians appear to think that he does anyhow, and he does not suffer fools. He also deals with situations firmly and promptly, and the Russian Orthodox Church has respect fo him.

So in the highly unlikely event.........

[Michael HR]

Interesting...

[TimM]

So would be be Vladimir I?  Or have there been other Tsars with that name?