Author Topic: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna  (Read 171252 times)

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susana

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #150 on: December 25, 2008, 07:42:43 PM »
We can all write back and forth as much as we want but Paul changed the law of succession to include only male Romanovs--it was never changed to re-include females and of course its now too late. Elizabeth II did stand in recognition of Prince Nicholas as the Romanov Head. And it doesn't matter who's more closely related to QEII or anyone in my opinion as clearly the succession, if it were a real issue would be through a male.

Its more inviting to participate on this forum when we exchange ideas and sometimes laughs--but not very pleasant when a reply to a post sounds critical. Kind of takes the fun out of it.

Benjamin

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #151 on: December 26, 2008, 04:05:24 PM »
News Release on the Attendance of the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, at the Funeral Services for the Newly-Reposed Patriarch Aleksei II of Moscow and All Russia, 6-10 December 2008



On the morning of 5 December 2008, His Holiness, Patriarch Aleksei II of Moscow and All Russia, reposed in the Lord. Having learned this heartrending news, the Head of the Russian Imperial House, H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, immediately postponed all her other plans and on 6 December flew to Moscow to pay her last respects to the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, with whom the Imperial family has for many years been linked in a bond of love, respect, and mutual support...

Full press release: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/dynastynews/news/2008/852.html
__________________________

Georgy Romanov appointed as Advisor to General Director of MMC Norilsk Nickel
12 Dec 2008



Grand Duke Georgy Romanov was appointed Advisor to the General Director of MMC Norilsk Nickel (MMC Norilsk Nickel or the Company).

In this capacity Georgy Romanov will represent the Company’s interests in the European Union.

Together with MMC Norilsk Nickel First Deputy General Director Oleg Pivovarchuk and Deputy General Director Viktor Sprogis, Georgy Romanov will join the Board of Nickel Institute (http://www.nickelinstitute.org) with the aim to represent the Company. Among other matters, he will be responsible for the Company’s initiative contesting the European Commission decision to classify a number of nickel compounds as hazardous substances.

Full press release: http://www.nornik.ru/en/press/news/2353/

Offline mcdnab

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2008, 09:49:24 AM »
Susana
I didn't think any of my posts were particularly critical - ironically I tend to share your clear distaste for the Vladimirovichi line. However the Pauline Laws (as incorporated into the 1906 fundamental rules of the Russian Empire as amended prior to 1917) are pretty clear on the rules I was merely explaining why Maria and Leonida hold the view they do and also why Prince Nicholas holds the view he does, if that came across as rude or offensive then naturally i apologise.

Paul didn't exclude women from the succession. He adopted the system that had been adopted by the Hapsburgs - semi salic - succession through the male line only but in the event of the extinction of the male line the throne would pass to the senior female dynast and thence to all her heirs in the same manner.
As far as I understand - The current and long standing arguement centres on two distinct views - 1) the vladimirovichi's view that a) Leonida's marriage to Vladimir was valid  and b) that on Vladimir's death in 1992 there were no surviving male dynasts.2) The view of Prince Nicholas that a) the Ukase of 1911 on marriages of members of the dynasty DOES permit marriages of Prince's of the Blood to women of non-corresponding rank and that b) that the offspring of such marriages are Russian Dynasts - in which case on the death of Vladimir Kyrilovitch  - Prince Nicholas became the senior male dynast of the House of Holstein Gottorp Romanov. 
I've tried in my posts to explain the reasons behind those views and how they relate to a strict reading of the Pauline Laws, the Fundamental Rules of the Russian Empire and the varying Imperial Ukases relating to them.
As to the issues surrounding Elizabeth II - as I stated she's actually never made any comment on the matter, nor does her opinion matter in connection with the rules of the now defunct Russian Empire. I may have misquoted the meeting which i understand took place at a Faberge Exhibition and that she stood up on being introduced to him - but i wouldn't necessarily read that as an acknowledgement, I've been in a room where The Queen stood on being introduced to someone who had no Royal claims whatsoever. Nicholas Romanov is undoubtedly head of the Family Association but my understanding is that whilst he claims he is the senior member of the family and dismisses Maria's claims he has never claimed to be de jure Emperor unlike Maria.  I think one point worth bearing in mind is that Nicholas and his brother and other members of the family association tend to feature more in official functions relating to the Romanov's such as the reburials in St Petersburg whereas Maria tends to feature more in religious events in Russia etc which I think is interesting though has no bearing on the rights and wrongs of either side though.


Offline TampaBay

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2008, 07:30:09 AM »
mcdnab & Susanna,

All the Romanovs need to get together and revised their family laws (which is what the Imperial Laws really are IMO) for a modern world in 2008.

There is some web site where a Russian scholar actually did this and suggested that the family adopt his revisions of the Imperial laws.

What I find really interesting is the GD George does not seem to me to be all that really interested in being the "Tsar".

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susana

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #154 on: January 05, 2009, 11:23:49 AM »
I understand about the last male available--then go to female. I just believe the Vladamiroviches (sp?) had a flawed line before 1917. Really we're all correct as this forum contains not only facts but opinions. Interpretations are naturally going to differ. IMO Prince Nicholas behaves with dignity, Maria is a bit pushy (we call it beating a dead horse to death) and there's no tsardom for her son George. The few Romanovs I've spent any time with seem to find Maria an embarrassment--but of course they're too well-bred to discuss her. A few neutral words and that's it. Where ever QEII stood the material I read indicated it was a rather large honor--I like that. Thank you for the apology I felt a bit singed but I've noticed it happens often on here so its just a little personal thingy.

Offline mcdnab

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2009, 05:41:05 AM »
No problem Susanna that's the problem with postings rather than a conversation I certainly didn't mean any offence.

To be fair to Maria I suspect her "pushiness" is in part the fact that over the past few years we've seen several former monarchies invite or permit their former monarch's or their heirs to return (Serbia and Roumania for example) and have granted them some kind of semi-official status - which presumably is what she is hoping for in the long run. I think in many ways its probably harder for her to surrender those hopes and behave differently given her family have spent nearly 90 years insisting that they were the senior line and to be fair with the exeption of Prince Nicholas' grand father and great uncle the dynasty did accept both Kyril and Vladimir as claimants. It was only in the 1960's that the remaining dynasts finally broke with Vladimir and to be fair it was largely his own fault.

As to the rest of the family I think most of them accepted a long time ago that the chance of any kind of restoration was fairly thin and they've got on with their own lives as you say behaving with dignity and emphasising that such matters as restoration rests with the Russian People as Michael Alexandrovitch stated in his 1917 manifesto.

As to the British Queen - I've very rarely seen her seated when she greets someone, it would be impolite to stay seated even if her position as monarch meant she could, but I could be wrong who knows.

You mentioned the status of the Vladimirovichi before 1917 - and it is an interesting one. I am no great expert but from everything I have read it would be difficult to argue that the Vladimirovichi were not regarded as dynasts prior to 1917.

Whilst it would be unthinkable for an Empress Consort or the wife of the heir to the throne not to have been Orthodox at their marriage I believe the Pauline Law only requires the wife of the heir to be Orthodox - when Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovitch married Marie Pavlovna he was fourth in line to the throne (behind his brother and his nephews Nicholas and George) - as he had consent to marry her and their children were all listed as dynasts I don't think her lack of conversion until later life would affect their rights.

As to Kyril's marriage - at the time of his marriage he was also fourth in line (after Alexei, Michael and his father Vladimir), true the Orthodox Church did not permit first cousins to marry, however other Romanov's had married first cousins, I also believe that in the case of such a marriage taking place the Russian Church doesn't regard the marriage as invalid. The Tsar was head of the church prior to 1917, Nicholas II in eventually recognising Kyril's marriage arguably dispensed any impediment to the marriage. He granted Victoria Melita the style Imperial Highness and Grand Duchess of Russia - their two daughters born before the revolution were listed in the court calendar as dynasts with the style Her Highness and Princess of Russia (as great granddaughters of a sovereign) and Victoria had converted to Orthodoxy long before the birth of her son Vladimir.

There is in one issue that would negate the relevance of morganatic marriages that i have recently read and would therefore arguably dismiss Maria Vladimirovna's claims to be the daughter of the last dynast - the fact that Nicholas II abdicated in favour of his brother Michael Alexandrovitch a Grand Duke who was in a morganatic marriage (which up to that point Nicholas clearly regarded as making his brother inelligable for the throne - just as Alexander I had regarded his brother Constantine's marriage in 1820 as making him inelligable to succeed him). You could at a stretch argue that Nicholas effectively abolished the equal marriage rule by his abdication in favour of Michael but of course Nicholas' abdication in favour of Michael is still disputed by those who adhere strictly to the Fundamental Rules. If that act did put an end to it then it would mean that the Russian Succession or claims would pass first to the male line Vladimirichi, thence to the Illyinsky decendants of Grand Duke Dimitri, thence to Prince Nicholas and his brother, thence to the Mikhailovichi (the descendants of Grand Duke Alexander and Grand Duchess Xenia) and only then to the senior surviving female dynast.

Offline Michael HR

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2009, 10:03:07 AM »
Interesting discussion. I agree with the view point that we should follow the wishes of GD Michael Alexandrovich in that it should be put to the Russian people as to if, when and who takes the Crown of Russia. It may be Maria it may not but that should be for the people to decide one way or the other.
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Offline Marc

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #157 on: January 07, 2009, 09:21:30 PM »
Don't know about who is right and who is wrong,but considering that of all Russian dynasts Princess Leonida Bagration-Moukhransky was in the highest position to be considered equal(there were things why Bagration family would be considered equal and thing why not) comparing her to Countess Cheremeteva who was a mother of the other claimant Prince Nicholas...

Other thing is that I would include as far as the marriages are concerned is that present claimant married again equal royal(Prince of Prussia who belonged to another Imperial family) in comparation to Prince Nicholas's wife who just happens to be a Countess della Gherardesca...

Third thing which goes this time in favour of Prince Nicholas is that he is a male descedant and Maria is a female descedant leaving foreign Prince(her son George) as Head of the House(similar like Peter III came to be an Emperor as Prince von Holstein-Gottorp)...

So,don't know which of those things is more important...

Offline Lucien

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V_Corona

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #159 on: February 05, 2009, 05:40:21 PM »

Offline Marlene

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #160 on: February 18, 2009, 03:26:23 PM »
Utter nonsense.  The Pauline law does not exclude women.  Period.Full Stop.    All the males come before the females, but females have rights.  This is made quite clear with various renouncements, such as the renouncements of Princesses Tatiana and Irina when they married.

The story about the queen standing for Nicholas Romanov is also utter nonsense.   The queen has never made a statement regarding the imperial succession because it is irrelevant ... she stood up because she was greeting a group of people who walked into the room.

Grand Duchess Maria, on the other hand, was actually invited to tea at Buckingham Palace by the queen when maria attended Oxford.




We can all write back and forth as much as we want but Paul changed the law of succession to include only male Romanovs--it was never changed to re-include females and of course its now too late. Elizabeth II did stand in recognition of Prince Nicholas as the Romanov Head. And it doesn't matter who's more closely related to QEII or anyone in my opinion as clearly the succession, if it were a real issue would be through a male.

Its more inviting to participate on this forum when we exchange ideas and sometimes laughs--but not very pleasant when a reply to a post sounds critical. Kind of takes the fun out of it.
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Benjamin

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #161 on: March 28, 2009, 09:23:31 PM »
House of Romanovs files pleas for rehabilitation of members of Russian royal family
27 March 2009

Moscow - The House of Romanovs on Friday filed pleas with the Russian Prosecutor General's Office requesting the rehabilitation of members of the royal family who were executed after the revolution.

"Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna believes that all the members of the royal family named in the plea had fallen victim to the arbitrariness of the totalitarian state and were exposed to political reprisals on social, class and religious grounds," German Lukyanov, a lawyer of the House of Romanovs, told Interfax

He said two pleas for the rehabilitation of relatives were filed by head of the Russian Imperial House Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.

Lukyanov said she insists on the rehabilitation of Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich who was shot in Perm on June 13, 1918, and also Grand Duchess Yelizaveta Fyodorovna, Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich, Prince Ioann Konstantinovich, Prince Konstantin Konstantinovich and Prince Igor Konstantinovich who were thrown into a mine in Alapayevsk on July 18, 1918.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5850

rkonnoff

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #162 on: April 29, 2009, 08:00:17 PM »
I would say, so much for Leonida not being Royalty..............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th1kGR-S03s

Offline Marc

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2009, 12:34:02 PM »
One small of GD Maria Vladimirovna:


Offline Marc

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2009, 05:40:37 AM »
In this video you posted there is a lady wearing a tiara on the right...who she might be?