Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna

[pookiepie]

Switching topics a bit here, a few weeks ago at church they made an announcement that Maria was going to come to the sobor in san francisco to venerate the relics of st. John. Has anybody heard anything about this? Supposedly, she will be there at the end of April.

In case anyone is interested, MV will be at the sabor in San Francisco on Saturday April 24th 2010 at 5pm, then for liturgy the next morning.  I'm not a fan of her politics but as a romanov fan, i'm obviously going

[PAVLOV]

I have waded through everything written about this person, as well as the endless arguments for and against her claims, and I remain convinced that neither she or her son have any credibility. What they have, is so thinly spread that it is virtually non existent. Everything is veiled by changes of name, titles etc etc,. It has become a bit of a farce.   

Are there NO Romanov decendants who can put a stop to all of this ? Dont any of them have the gumption or clout to denounce her once and for all ? 

I am embarrassed for the Romanov family every time I see her on television. Is this what they have come to, a large over frosted mobile cake of a woman giving herself airs and graces to which she really has right ? The most embarrassing public airing she was given on Russian televison fairly recently, was at a function attended by Putin and the Church. She loomed larger than life over a buffet table, but thankfully she did not touch the food.

Everything about her is just so inappropriate, she does not fit into the whole milieu or history of this family.

       

 

I

[Belochka]

I have waded through everything written about this person, as well as the endless arguments for and against her claims, and I remain convinced that neither she or her son have any credibility. What they have, is so thinly spread that it is virtually non existent. Everything is veiled by changes of name, titles etc etc,. It has become a bit of a farce.   

... Everything about her is just so inappropriate, she does not fit into the whole milieu or history of this family.

Well stated Pavlov!

The very idea that she and her son George anticipate the restoration of the monarchy in their favor is such an absurdity.

[Marc]

Everything is veiled by changes of name, titles etc etc,. It has become a bit of a farce.        

Well,by that "real" Romanovs were extinct in second half of 18th century with the death of Empress Elizabeth...

If any of Romanov male heirs have married a person whose status would be considered equal that would change the thing,but as that is not the case it is hardly changeable...of all the families male Romanovs have married after their exile Bagration family has most the most chances to be considered equal...

This just depends on what criteria would or should be used for the term "Russian Heir",just a male who bases his claim on being a most senior in the family without marrying "equally" or being a product of such(Prince Nicholas Romanov with Cheremeteva mother and married to Gherardesca) or descendants of most senior male who has married equally and his daughters did this as such(questionable claim of Maria Vladimirovna,as her mother is Bagration,and she married to Hohenzollern)...

[Michael HR]

As I have said in the past I think Russia should follow, when the time is right, the contents of GD Michael's abdication document and put it to the people if, who and when. IMHO I do not support GD Maria for all the reasons so often stated here and not least her blind attachment to the ROC, which has served her so very badly over the remains buried in the P and P.

[Marc]

Ok,what criteria should Russian Heir follow?

Equality of birth or male line seniority?Those two criteria are main reasons for dispute in the family nowadays... 

[PAVLOV]

On second thoughts.....I think the whole problem here is that the Romanov Family, for some reason, do not, and cannot, and dont want to, take a stand against her and denounce her. I dont think they really care anyway.  Time has made them realistic about Russia and the highly unlikely reinstatement of their Dynasty. Sadly. Perhaps they are giving her enough rope with which to hang herself.

Grand Duchess M's whole claim is based on the Bagration link, which has not been a ruling house for centuries.
As far as I know the rules of succession clearly state that an heir to the throne of Russia has to marry a member of a RULING family. The Bagrations were kicked out centuries ago. Or am I wrong ?

Her self "appointed" grandfather was not accepted by the Dowager Empress, and had the Romanovs survived, he would probably have been tried for treason anyway, or banished from Russia for the remainder of his life. 
He certainly was not a shining example of loyalty to the family when he was alive, what makes his grandaughter think that she can arbitrarily and single handedly, wipe the slate of history clean and appoint herself as God's annointed Empress / Tsarina of Russia? ( In waiting )
She just "magically" arranged for her whole family to become Romanovs. Amazing. 

Or have I got it all wrong ?

[Teddy]

I think that if The last ruling Emperor Tsar Nicholas accepted the marriage between Princess Tatiana K. and Prince Bagration, then the marriage of GD Vladimir K. with Princess Leonida is also accepted.

[Marc]

Grand Duchess M's whole claim is based on the Bagration link, which has not been a ruling house for centuries.
As far as I know the rules of succession clearly state that an heir to the throne of Russia has to marry a member of a RULING family. The Bagrations were kicked out centuries ago. Or am I wrong ?

Heir doesn't have to marry into the ruling family,albeit he often does...Here is a quote from the other pretender to the Russian throne Prince Nicholas Romanov about marriages in Romanov family in which they followed Gotha:

"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.
And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.
That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable!"

Here is link for this quote:
http://www.nikolairomanov.com/doc/iv1pre/index.html


P.S.Bagration family was a ruling one until 19th century and that was the reason they treated it something like "equal"...

[kmerov]

In the end it was up to the Emperor to decide who was equal enough when there was a controrversy. Nicholas I accepted Duke Maximilian of Leuchtenberg as equal when he married GDss Maria Nicholaevna, eventhough he was not a member of a ruling family and his father started his life as a commoner.

[Marc]

There is also the base to Maria's claim by the fact that royal status of the House of Bagration was permanently recognized by Russia in the Treaty of Georgievsk in 1783.

[PAVLOV]

Yes but there is also her grandfather's treasonous behaviour, which surely cancels a few things out ? I think a treaty signed by Catherine II in 1783 may have expired by now, and is certainly past its 'sell by" date. It therefore cannot be regarded as the basis for this woman to proclaim herself " Empress in Waiting" of Russia !!
 
Anyway, this is becoming such a boring and longwinded subject, maybe we should give it a rest. We could argue about this endlessly.

I just think she is demeaning the whole family. I dont care who or what she is, or is trying to be, she does not fit into the picture.

She and her son just bug me big time. They are an embarrassment to the memory and dignity of the Romanov family. 

[mcdnab]

Not quite:
The new ruling from Nicholas II following discussions with Tatiana's father resulted in the much disputed edict that implied that unlike a Grand Duke or Grand Duchess a Prince or Princess of the blood could marry unequally - the debate has always been whether such a marriage enabled the said Prince or Princess to pass their rights to the issue of such a union.
However like his niece Irena, Tatiana was required to renounce her rights to the succession on her marriage which implied that they couldn't.

Effectively the Bagration's were not regarded as equal in in pre revolutionary Russia but Nicholas didn't believe that such a marriage should deprive Tatiana of her rank as a Princess of Russia just her rights to the succession.

I get the impression that Vladimir's view before and after his marriage was that the Romanov's being dispossessed of their throne put them technically in the same bracket as the Bagrations!

I think that if The last ruling Emperor Tsar Nicholas accepted the marriage between Princess Tatiana K. and Prince Bagration, then the marriage of GD Vladimir K. with Princess Leonida is also accepted.

[Naslednik Norvezhskiy]

Here is a quote from the other pretender to the Russian throne Prince Nicholas Romanov about marriages in Romanov family in which they followed Gotha:

"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.
And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.
That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable!"

Here is link for this quote:
http://www.nikolairomanov.com/doc/iv1pre/index.html

That is a very odd example Prince Nicholas Romanov picked, considering that the Harrachs were both Catholic and only one line of them actually mediatized. (As you explained so throughfully regarding the Princess of Liegnitz in another thread, Marc.) Also considering that no Romanov dynast actually ever married a member of a mediatized house. But if mediatized German houses were OK in principle, I can't see why a mediatized Georgian house shouldn't be OK in princicple.

[Margot]

Gosh I would love to own a cosmetics shop in SF! You could make a fortune if MV ran out of something and had to send her dresser down to replenish MV's Make up troughs! One could probably retire on that sale alone!