Author Topic: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna  (Read 162982 times)

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Nicola De Valeron

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #210 on: April 20, 2010, 04:48:39 PM »
There were a lot of Dukes or leaders of the Principalities with Vladimir name in old and more modern pre-Romanovs Russian history.

Btw, I know only one "Tsar" (at least de facto) with this name. This is the former KGB Officer (retired Lieutenant Colonel) and the second Russian President Vladimir Vladimirovich P.;)

Constantinople

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #211 on: April 21, 2010, 01:23:04 PM »
if monarchy was ever reinstated, I think that GD Maria Vlad would be exactly the wrong person to be he new monarch.  She is unctuous and superficial.

Offline mcdnab

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #212 on: April 21, 2010, 08:17:12 PM »
Actually he did and it was very clear that Nicholas II believed that legally the marriage was morganatic just unlike the marriages of his brother and uncle Paul it wasn't a disgrace.
It's worth looking at the law on this issue:
Alexander III in 1889 issued a decree that made any marriage by any member of the Imperial Family to anyone of non royal status illegal and invalid.
In 1911 Nicholas amended the law again:
The Lord Emperor has seen fit to permit marriages to persons not possessing corresponding rank of not all Members of the Imperial Family, but only of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial...Princes as well as Princesses of the Blood Imperial, upon contracting a marriage with a person not possessing corresponding rank, shall personally retain the title and privileges which are theirs by birth, with the exception of their right to succession from which they shall have abdicated before entering the marriage. In relation to the categorization of the marriages of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial, the Lord Emperor has seen fit to recognize only two categories in these marriages: (a) equal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and (b) unequal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and will not recognize any other categories.
Also the original rules were left in place within the Fundamental laws = that a person of the Imperial family who has entered into a marriage alliance with a person not possessing corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, cannot pass on to that person, or to any posterity that may issue from such a marriage, the rights which belong to the Members of the Imperial family.
there is a difference between that note and what was enshrined in law which only emphasies that Grand Duke's can't marry unequally at all.

And this one:
Children born of a marriage between a member of the Imperial Family and a person not of corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, shall have no right of succession to the Throne.
In this case Tatiana was required to renounce not because of tradition but because of the 1911 decree - unless she renounced she wouldn't receive consent to marry -  "Her Highness the Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna has presented to Us over Her own sign manual, a renunciation of the right to succession to the Imperial Throne of All the Russias belonging to Her as a member of the Imperial House,"
What Nicholas II said is a matter of conjecture as is his behaviour at the wedding itself - but Tatiana like Nicholas' niece Irena renounced their rights on marrying unequally in return they retained their style and titles however their children were not regarded as Russian Dynasts due to the morganatic nature of their parents marriage.

It was not uncommon for women of the IF to renounce their rights to the throne when they married. That doesn't say anything about the question of Princess Tatianas marriage being equal or not. Nicholas II never made an officiel statement about this. He said to KR in private that he would never consider the marriage to be unequal.
[/quote]

Ilias_of_John

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #213 on: April 30, 2010, 12:18:31 AM »
 
There were a lot of Dukes or leaders of the Principalities with Vladimir name in old and more modern pre-Romanovs Russian history.

Btw, I know only one "Tsar" (at least de facto) with this name. This is the former KGB Officer (retired Lieutenant Colonel) and the second Russian President Vladimir Vladimirovich P.;)

I thought he was a higher rank than a Lt. Colonel...... ;)

kmerov

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #214 on: May 08, 2010, 07:42:02 PM »
Actually he did and it was very clear that Nicholas II believed that legally the marriage was morganatic just unlike the marriages of his brother and uncle Paul it wasn't a disgrace.
It's worth looking at the law on this issue:
Alexander III in 1889 issued a decree that made any marriage by any member of the Imperial Family to anyone of non royal status illegal and invalid.
In 1911 Nicholas amended the law again:
The Lord Emperor has seen fit to permit marriages to persons not possessing corresponding rank of not all Members of the Imperial Family, but only of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial...Princes as well as Princesses of the Blood Imperial, upon contracting a marriage with a person not possessing corresponding rank, shall personally retain the title and privileges which are theirs by birth, with the exception of their right to succession from which they shall have abdicated before entering the marriage. In relation to the categorization of the marriages of Princes and Princesses of the Blood Imperial, the Lord Emperor has seen fit to recognize only two categories in these marriages: (a) equal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and (b) unequal marriages, i.e. those contracted with persons not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, and will not recognize any other categories.
Also the original rules were left in place within the Fundamental laws = that a person of the Imperial family who has entered into a marriage alliance with a person not possessing corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, cannot pass on to that person, or to any posterity that may issue from such a marriage, the rights which belong to the Members of the Imperial family.
there is a difference between that note and what was enshrined in law which only emphasies that Grand Duke's can't marry unequally at all.

And this one:
Children born of a marriage between a member of the Imperial Family and a person not of corresponding rank, that is, not belonging to a Royal or Ruling House, shall have no right of succession to the Throne.
In this case Tatiana was required to renounce not because of tradition but because of the 1911 decree - unless she renounced she wouldn't receive consent to marry -  "Her Highness the Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna has presented to Us over Her own sign manual, a renunciation of the right to succession to the Imperial Throne of All the Russias belonging to Her as a member of the Imperial House,"
What Nicholas II said is a matter of conjecture as is his behaviour at the wedding itself - but Tatiana like Nicholas' niece Irena renounced their rights on marrying unequally in return they retained their style and titles however their children were not regarded as Russian Dynasts due to the morganatic nature of their parents marriage.

It was not uncommon for women of the IF to renounce their rights to the throne when they married. That doesn't say anything about the question of Princess Tatianas marriage being equal or not. Nicholas II never made an officiel statement about this. He said to KR in private that he would never consider the marriage to be unequal.
[/quote]

Yes, the law stated that Grand Dukes could not enter into a morganatic marriage, and that was the only thing that Ncholas legally changed. Princesses could renounce their rights to the throne either when marrying a foreign prince, or when entering a morganatic marriage. Nicholas never made a public statement that Tatiana Konstantinovnas marriage was morganatic, but added to the confusion by his private comments. However the way her rennounciation came about, and the status of the Bagrationi family indicates that it was seen as a morganatic marriage.

Benjamin

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #215 on: September 11, 2010, 02:37:52 PM »
A site with photos of George Mikhailovich, Maria Vladimirovna, and their family, several of which I had not seen before:

http://www.spletnik.ru/blogs/govoryat_chto/3626_cesarevich_i_velikij_knyaz_georgij_mixajlovich




Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #216 on: September 11, 2010, 11:37:36 PM »
Hey! She was VERY pretty when she was younger!  :o Thanks for the link. Some of the pics it shows are awesome.

RealAnastasia.

scarlett_riviera

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #217 on: September 12, 2010, 08:28:18 PM »
A site with photos of George Mikhailovich, Maria Vladimirovna, and their family, several of which I had not seen before:

http://www.spletnik.ru/blogs/govoryat_chto/3626_cesarevich_i_velikij_knyaz_georgij_mixajlovich




Not exactly a fan, but I see a little bit of Liz Taylor in there! Very pretty. :) Nice to see those pics of Georgiy, is he engaged yet?

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #218 on: September 12, 2010, 11:33:07 PM »
Yeah! You've said it. Yesterday, when I saw the pic I began to wnder where had I seen this face before. Maria Vladimirovna made me think of a person to whom I cannot put a name. Until today, when you noticed a slighest likeness to Liz Taylor.

RealAnastasia.

susana

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #219 on: September 15, 2010, 01:43:01 AM »
Back up to the question of legitimacy vs "emotionality (real laws of succession) the majority of the expatriot Romanovs aligned with the Dowager Empress in support of Nicholasha and following his death Prince Nicholas Romanovitch to the present. Its amusing to hear support of Prince Nicholas referred to as emotional--he is recognized by Queen Elizabeth II as the Head of the House of Romanov. She certainly can't be accused of being emotional and her recognition came at an official ceremony when she STOOD to be introduced, a favor reserved for rulers.

Offline Teddy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #220 on: September 16, 2010, 01:16:38 AM »
It is not for Queen Elizabeth II to choose or recognise a head of the Romanov family

Offline mcdnab

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #221 on: September 16, 2010, 07:23:46 AM »
I thought this had been discussed before -
The Queen invariably stands to greet guests she has excellent manners - but it means nothing in terms of recognition and is irrelevant to the discussion.

Benjamin

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #222 on: September 16, 2010, 05:28:50 PM »
Thank you for pointing that out, mcdnab! 

HM The Queen had Grand Duchesses Leonida and Maria to tea at the Palace while the latter was at Oxford.

This letter may also be of interest. ; )



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slavona

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #223 on: October 21, 2010, 09:17:08 AM »
A stupid question. Was her marriage arraged for a title for her child? Why did they divorce so soon? And if it was for a title, why him?

Benjamin

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna
« Reply #224 on: November 14, 2010, 05:07:16 PM »
Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia



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