Relationship of Marie Feodorovna & Empress Alexandra

[Alixz]

I was about to post what Robert did.  That the dowager empress had the right of precedence over the current empress.  The prerogative just had not been exercised for a long time because the previous empresses had predeceased their husbands.

But I do think that while Dagmar had the "right", she could have been more sympathetic and tried to help Alix understand the rules.

Alix was, after all, a new bride and a new empress with all the emotional turmoil that came with the territory.  The fight over the jewels and who had the "right" to wear those is an example of Dagmar not trying to understand or help.

But Alix was just as stubborn.

From The Shadow of the Winter Palace by Edward Crankshaw: 

"...why the twenty-two-year-old girl from Hesse, plunged suddenly into the midst of the most overpowering court in Europe, instead of taking stock, immediately started nagging her beloved Nicky at his father's death-bed.  It does not explain her instant and implacable hostility to the family into which she had entered, or her complete failure to perform her duties as Tsaritsa (duties which she freely undertook when she was old enough to know what they were) and to go virtually into hiding for the greater part of her life - trying to confine her children and Nicholas himself to a sort of everlasting cosy tea-party at Tsarskoe Selo.  She was no stranger to royal protocol and etiquette: as one of Victoria's favourite grandchildren, she had largely been brought up at Windsor Castle."

[jfkhaos]

I have been re-reading a lot of different Romanov books concurrently lately, and they each seem to have different opinions on this.  Here's my take on this issue.

(1)  AIII and MF originally would not consider a German bride for NII as they both had long-held views on Germans.  MF came from a family that was violently anti-Prussian, and then anti-German.  Although AF was AIII's goddaughter, the imperial couple did not hold a very high opinion of AF from her performance on earlier visits to her sister Ella (i.e. her French, then the language of the court), and did not think that AF had the qualities needed for a future Russian empress.  MF evidently possessed these necessary traits as she was held in high regard by the Russian people, although not necessarily by some members of the Romanov family.

(2)  AF grew up, after the death of her mother, introverted and shy, and even through the extended courtship and soul-searching in the early 1890s, never expressed a goal of becoming empress.  She wasn't prepared for the death of AIII and I am sure never thought of becoming empress so early.  She might have thought that she would have years to become accustomed to her position.

(3)  The time that brought these two women together wasn't the normal happy time that a wedding usually becomes.  Alix came to Russia on AIII's deathbed (hence the whispers of Alix coming to Russia behind a coffin), married NII (effectively taking him out of his mother's sphere, perhaps when she needed him the most, as well as her influence), and saw a newcomer she wasn't really familiar with, and hadn't had time to become accustomed to, automatically become the new empress.

[jehan]

welll...Alicky was a bit "damaged". She lost her mother and younger sister at a very young age. They all feel sorry for the motherless girl and let her go her own way. Unlike Missy who was strictly diciplined by her mother to obey. Alicky was also arrogant and spoke to most like someone with superior knowlege and knows best (made others dfeel less than themselves). If only Alice had not died...

But by that definition, the majority of people before the twentieth century would have been "damaged".  I think it was the lucky few who made it to adulthood without losing a parent or a sibling- let alone other close relatives.  QV grew up without a father, as did her children ( the younger of whose childhoods were overshadowed by mourning).  Vicky's kids lost little brothers, and the younger ones lost their father quite young (after a protracted illness).  Bertie, Helena and Affie lost children in infancy.  Leopold's kids grew up fatherless, as did Beatrice's.  Alix's siblings managed, for the most part to grow up normally, depsite the tragedies in their lives (and yes, the loss of Alice so young was a tragedy for more than just her family).

I think that Alix was was she was- had she not lost her mother, she might still have been shy and haughty.  While our childhood experiences shape us greatly- I think it's only one factor in our adult personality- a lot of traits we were just born with.  Otherwise Alix's siblings would have been as damaged as she was- but they were all quite different in the way their personalities developed.

[Eric_Lowe]

True...But VMH and Ella had the good fortune to be trained by Alice, who saw how dedicated she was to her duties (even though she disliked some of them). Had Alicky saw how Alice got through her grief losing Fritte, she might be less of a control freak with Alexei. I don't think someone as self-control (to a point of self-denial) as Alice would let Alicky off the hook that easy. It was reported that Alicky, when acting as hostess for her father (later brother's) court in Darmstadt. frequently left the party early and return to her room and read. Alice most likely would have made Alicky stayed until the last guest had left. It was certainly bad manners to say the least if not done outerwise. it was this attitude of "she is like that" and "let her be" that I termed "spoiled". It was a re-run of that in St.Petersburg. Instead of understanding her subjects first (like Dagmar), she thought she could changed things by crossing out those she deemed unsuitable "by her own standards". It of course blew up in her face. One cannot blame Dagmar for being amused in her daughter-in-law's fall, it was high time that "arrogant and stubborn" girl learn a lesson. 

[dmitri]

I don't think Maria Feodorovna was unfair to Alexandra at all. Alexandra was insanely jealous of her mother-in-law and couldn't accept that a Dowager Empress has the number one position in Russia and not the reigning Empress. If she had bothered to learn from Maria, Alexandra could have become a worthwhile Empress. Instead she to be difficult. No wonder she was shunned by those who admired Maria. Alexandra chose to not carry out the duties required of her and hid away at Tsarskoe Selo becoming more and more unpopular and intefering in matters of government which she clearly did not understand. Maria was a wise woman as her diaries reveal. Nicholas sadly did not listen to her. That is one of the greatest tragedies in Russian history.

[Belochka]

I don't think Maria Feodorovna was unfair to Alexandra at all. Alexandra was insanely jealous of her mother-in-law and couldn't accept that a Dowager Empress has the number one position in Russia and not the reigning Empress. If she had bothered to learn from Maria, Alexandra could have become a worthwhile Empress. Instead she to be difficult. No wonder she was shunned by those who admired Maria. Alexandra chose to not carry out the duties required of her and hid away at Tsarskoe Selo becoming more and more unpopular and intefering in matters of government which she clearly did not understand. Maria was a wise woman as her diaries reveal. Nicholas sadly did not listen to her. That is one of the greatest tragedies in Russian history.

None of your allegations are correct.

Why not familiarize yourself with Griff's brilliant thread and try and understand that Alexandra was a not "worthless Empress" but a woman who possessed unique qualities which few have bothered to appreciate.

"The Empress fights back" http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,9379.0.html

[TheAce1918]

. Maria was a wise woman as her diaries reveal. Nicholas sadly did not listen to her. That is one of the greatest tragedies in Russian history.

None of your allegations are correct.

The rest of his post, I agree with ye.  But The DE was indeed an intelligent woman and did understand the Russian court much more than Alix, Alix really stayed away from the court, because she was very shy towards them...and according to some court members...never really blended well amongst the elite in Russian aristocracy.
Nicholas would always ask for advice from his mother before and during his reign.  But once the Romanovs entered the Rasputin Era, he listened to Marie less and less, and more from Alix.

[Belochka]

. Maria was a wise woman as her diaries reveal. Nicholas sadly did not listen to her. That is one of the greatest tragedies in Russian history.

None of your allegations are correct.

The rest of his post, I agree with ye.  But The DE was indeed an intelligent woman and did understand the Russian court much more than Alix, Alix really stayed away from the court, because she was very shy towards them...and according to some court members...never really blended well amongst the elite in Russian aristocracy.
Nicholas would always ask for advice from his mother before and during his reign.  But once the Romanovs entered the Rasputin Era, he listened to Marie less and less, and more from Alix.

It is rather curious that whilst AIII was sovereign MF stayed out of politics, but when Nikolai II became sovereign, she felt it necessary to offer her advice. There are many instances where Nikolai spoke with his mother but he then proceeded to act independently. The Rasputin matter is one case in point.

The problem was that there were two Courts operating, and MF's role became more political than perhaps warranted.

Margarita 

[TheAce1918]

I can see it.  AIII was much more in control of his nation (at least what I've read of Russia during his reign), and obviously NII was, as he stated, "Never really wished to be Emperor."  So it would only seem natural for Marie to stay out of AIII's way, but then used what she had observed to help her son.  She knew that he was never really qualified to rule.
Nicholas' acts of independece seem to stem off of two things.  His faith, and his love for Alix.

[Eric_Lowe]

Well said. 

Dagmar appreciated her husbands's wisdom and never soughted to rule (she concentrated her energies on relatiionships and social & charitable aspects). It was thus apalling for her to see Alicky hiding away in her dream world with her family (especially after she exiled herself from Russia (to Denmark, England and Greece)). She sought to advice Nicky because she knew he wasn't politically minded. Nicky turned to her in her early years since Dagmar had good relationships with the ministers (like Witte) and knew her father's way well. So I don't think she was independently politically ambitious. It was unfortunately Alicky did not make use of her mother-in-law's good sense...

[dmitri]

Well said Eric. We have no way of knowing what Alexander III and Maria Feodorovna spoke about in private. It is well documented though that they were completely and utterly devoted to one another. It is therefore very hard to imagine that Alexander III did not discuss political matters with his consort. Alexandra was young, arrogant, foolish and totally ignorant about the Russian people. She never really tried to understand them at all.

[Eric_Lowe]

Well...To be fair she did...in a misguided way. Rasputin told her that she was beloved and doing good to the Russian people. Alicky never knew how her policies were harmful to Russia. And yes...she was arrogant and listen to no other people, when those who knew better tried to warn her (Ella included). 

[Belochka]

... Alexandra was young, arrogant, foolish and totally ignorant about the Russian people. She never really tried to understand them at all.

Who indeed were the Russian people? Was it the aristocrats in their fine salons who relished things western or was it the peasant toiling in the field whom the same aristocrats saw in passing?

Did any of them reallly understand the majority of Russian people who worked on the land?

Did anyone genuinely want to understand Alexandra?

Margarita
 

[Eric_Lowe]

Alicky was known to be cold, blunt and not diplomatic. I think people do want to understand her but I don't think Alicky allowed anyone to get too close. The isolation of the Imperial Family was ALL Alicky's doing. Even family like Greek Minny and Missy felt being shunned out. 

[dmitri]

The real problems were in the cities where poorer people had shocking working conditions and not so much on the farms. The abolition of serfdom in 1861 by Alexander II had altered the way of life for many and forced them off the land into work in the cities. Of course world war one was disastrous as well. Inflation, a harsh winter and a lack of goods assisted in bringing about a revolution largely hurried along by an incomepetent administration. Lessons should have been learnt from the 1905 revolution but sadly they were not. It is hard to explain how deeply cold a Russian winter is unless you have experienced one for yourself. It is important to realise back in 1917 there was no modern heating like there is now and how unbearable it must have been to have been cold and without warm nourishing food. Russia needed to keep out of war to survive. It did not have the means to fight a modern war or the appropriate system for effective distribution of necessary resources. All in all it was a disaster and Nicholas and Alexandra, no matter what one thinks of their home and family life, presided over the collapse of the Russian monarchy. It could have been prevented as it was not inevitable. Changes were necessary of course and the last Tsar was not the one to make them.