Tatiana's Name

[Raegan]

Yes, both spellings are correct. It depends on which transliteration system you use to convert between cyrillic and latin letters. я can be spelled as "ia" or "ya" in English depending on which system you use. American English most commonly uses "Tatiana" because the Library of Congress transliteration system represents я as "ia."

That’s what I thought. I always spell it Tatiana, but that is just my personal preference.

[Sarastasia]

Was her name actually spelt T-A-T-'-YA-N-A? 'Cause on a couple of postcards, I've seen it spelt T-A-T-I-A-N-A in Russian!!

[Holly]

They spelled it, "Tatiana".

[Sarastasia]

But that's not how she signs her name... and other postcards sho it to be ...'-YA... not ...I-A...

e.g.:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tatianacourtdress1910.jpg and http://www.livadia.org/tanya/tanyasig.jpg and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tatianakokoshnik1904.jpg
VS: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Otma1906.jpg

[Holly]

But that's not how she signs her name... and other postcards sho it to be ...'-YA... not ...I-A...

e.g.:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tatianacourtdress1910.jpg and http://www.livadia.org/tanya/tanyasig.jpg and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tatianakokoshnik1904.jpg
VS: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Otma1906.jpg

I was talking about transliteration. The family always spelled her name as, "Tatiana". I have never seen her spell her name as, "Tatyana". Always Tatiana. The first links you provided are the only versions I've ever seen used.

[Sarushka]

Holly is correct. Technically, both "Tatiana" and "Tatyana" are accurate transliterations into English, but to my knowledge Tatiana Nikolaevna herself always signed her name with the "ia" spelling in English.

[Sarastasia]

Yeah, transliterating into English, she always signed her name as Tatiana (with an i, not a soft sign and a ya)

But I was talking about how it was actually spelt in Russian (Sorry!!)

Because I have seen both Татьяна and Татiана (as in photos given) The majority tend to be Татьяна and she also signs her name so (like on photos and stuff), but it was just that one photo from 1906 when it was spelt Татiана.

Looking through some Church Slavonic stuff yesterday, it was apparent that her name was spelt Татиана (no old 'i', 'cause the stuff is modern), but then when it switched to Russian, she was called Татьяна....

Could this be the difference?

[julia.montague]

I would take the one that she wrote herself as right. ;-)

[Lalee]

I have also always seen her name to be spelt "Tatiana" by the Imperial Family (including Tatiana!), in memoirs and in books about the Romanovs, so that's how I would spell it, too.

What about Tatiana's (and her sisters') patronymic name? While reading Nicholas's letters, I saw that he sometimes signed it "Nicolai", which would mean that their patronymic name would be "Nicolaevna" (instead of "Nikolaevna" or "Nicholaievna")?

[Sarastasia]

Well, Tatiana's writing can be hard to read, but I can definately make out the 'ья' in her signature.

Ferah, do you mean that he signed 'Nicolai' when writing in English/French etc. and not Russian?? 'Cause there's no such c in Russian (what looks like a с is actually an s) Perhaps he just put in a c to make it more... latinized... (if that's even a word, LOL) But I would say that it is more correctly transliterated as a k (espeically because the English c has different sounds, some of which are not the same as the Russian к)

So I guess you could argue for Nicolaevna/Nicolaevich as a patronymic.

'Nicholaievna' as a patronymic is wrong. Nikolai doesn't have a 'ch' in it, but besides: when forming a patronymic for a child, whose father's name ends in a vowel and й, like Николай and Алексей, you have to drop the й and add евич/евна. So there should NEVER be an i (й) there.

[Sarushka]

Now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen any of the children include their patronymic in either their English or Russian signatures. There is a LOT of variation in the transliteration of Nikolaevna/Nikolaevich It all depends on what system you use:

Nikolaevna
Nikolaievna
Nicholaevna
Nicholaievna

Nikolaevich
Nikolaievich
Nicholaevich
Nicholaievich

I'm curious where you found the "Nicolai" signature. I've only seen "Nicholas," "Nikolai," "Nicky," and "Niki."

Because I have seen both Татьяна and Татiана (as in photos given) The majority tend to be Татьяна and she also signs her name so (like on photos and stuff), but it was just that one photo from 1906 when it was spelt Татiана.

Oh! That's a pre-revolutionary orthographic variation. In pre-revolutionary Russian, "ia'" is an alternate form of "ия/ья" and should be transliterated the same way. (Which means whether you use "ia" or "ya" is still a matter of personal preference, depending on the transliteration system you favor.) They're not different letters, but different ways of writing the same letters. Maria and Anastasia occasionally used the "ia" variant in their Russian signatures as well:

Mapia/Mapия
Aнacтacia/Aнacтacия

[Lalee]

I'm curious where you found the "Nicolai" signature. I've only seen "Nicholas," "Nikolai," "Nicky," and "Niki."

I saw some letters signed "Nicolai" from the AP Time Machine of Nicholas's letters to Alix during the war. It seems that most of them were signed "Nicky" but some of them were signed "Nicolai". Like these:

"Sincerest thanks to you and the children for letters. I am very glad that you have been to Louga. Yesterday your squadron of the Alexandriisky Hussars joined our troops after an absence of four weeks in the extreme rear of the enemy with very few losses. I embrace you all tenderly.

NICOLAI."

"Many thanks for letter of 28th. In the morning I inspected in Lyublin three hospitals in good order. Found here much of interest, of which I will tell you at our meeting. Saw many troops and sailors whom I knew. I am so glad to find them here. The weather is quite warm. To-morrow I shall drive round the battlefields. I said that we would stop in D. Embrace all closely.

NICOLAI."

[Sarastasia]

Now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen any of the children include their patronymic in either their English or Russian signatures. There is a LOT of variation in the transliteration of Nikolaevna/Nikolaevich It all depends on what system you use:

Nikolaevna
Nikolaievna
Nicholaevna
Nicholaievna

Nikolaevich
Nikolaievich
Nicholaevich
Nicholaievich

But there should still be no 'i' there. It's just how patronymics from those type of names are formed.

Oh! That's a pre-revolutionary orthographic variation. In pre-revolutionary Russian, "ia'" is an alternate form of "ия/ья" and should be transliterated the same way. (Which means whether you use "ia" or "ya" is still a matter of personal preference, depending on the transliteration system you favor.) They're not different letters, but different ways of writing the same letters. Maria and Anastasia occasionally used the "ia" variant in their Russian signatures as well:

Mapia/Mapия
Aнacтacia/Aнacтacия

Yeah, I was aware that 'i' was the pre-revolutionary version of 'и' used before vowels, but what I'm getting at is that both spellings were used before the Revolution and was just wondering why both were used.

And their names were written with a 'iя' not 'ia' --> Марiя, Анастасiя (sources: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Otma1906.jpg, http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/SaraFeodorovna/Maria19102.jpg, http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/SaraFeodorovna/Maria1910courtb.jpg and some notes/letters in 'Nicholas II: The Imperial Family'.)

[Sarushka]

IMO, given that they were fluent in two languages and moved comfortably between two alphabets that created significant variation, the imperial family's attitude toward the spelling of names was a lot more fluid than ours is today. I believe Anastasia signed one of her English exercise books "Anastasia Romanoff" for example. Alexandra often skirted the issue in her letters to the tsar by spelling Russian surnames in Russian.

Nowadays, alternate spellings are seen as a mark of individuality (Kate, Cate, Cait, Katie, Katy, Caty, Catie, Caity, etc, etc.) and spelling someone's name correctly is a Big Deal, but I don't think that was the case at the turn of the century. Another example: Mark Twain spells his wife's name at least two ways - Livy and Livie - in his personal correspondence.

And their names were written with a 'iя' not 'ia' --> Марiя, Анастасiя (sources: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Otma1906.jpg, http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/SaraFeodorovna/Maria19102.jpg, http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/SaraFeodorovna/Maria1910courtb.jpg and some notes/letters in 'Nicholas II: The Imperial Family'.)

Ack! You're right. I should have looked at the photos instead of going from memory.

[Sarastasia]

Yeah, I guess so. We should be even more thankful that by then, they'd standardized spelling as a whole, otherwise it would've been fun trying to decode what they'd written, as can be a proble in 16th and 17th C, etc!!!

LOL, well, it's not a massive mistake. The 'i' would have still been used before an 'a' anyway!!