Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!

[JonC]

Jon C. ,

There is room for deception by Yurovsky and the others.

It is speculated that Yurovsky's daughter was placed in prison to make sure he would remain silent about what happen that night.

Yurovsky's daughter was a devoted communists and the reason given for her arrest is about as lame as Yurovsky's story about burning and buriel of  the two bodies [one whom he claimed was Demidov] which are missing and no where to be found where he claimed they were.

AGRBear

Thanks Bear, I never knew that. The more I find out about Yurovsky the more I wonder just how complicit he was to the so-called murder of the Imperial Family. If I didn't know better I would be enclined to believe that he probably helped them escape.

Now if Yurovsky told a big tale even say for his daughter's sake what about any of the other stories we have read even from Sokolov...I think that's how you spell his name...was he threatened or paid off also?

What about that proud, boastfull group who claimed to have murdered Grand Duke Michael? His body was never found to confirm the event ever took place and yet everyone believes their proud story. All this makes me wonder indeed. JonC.

[Annie]

I'm really surprised there weren't claimants for Michael, since his body was never found and he would have easily outranked anyone else in exile, even AN.

[Belochka]

Tania, congratulations on your own personal martyology. But you and Belochka both missed the point I was trying make.  None of us would be the least bit aware of these children if it were not for the matter of their tragic deaths. THAT is what makes them important to some of you, their deaths.
Alexei would have likely died young, as his Spanish & English cousins with the same affliction did and you might find him a footnote in some royal bio.  The GDs in exile or not, would have dissapeared into genealogical charts.
My personal opinion of them is not important. I am trying to put them in terms of relevance to history. You both treat them as devotional candles.
 There is a difference in outlook, that is all.

[size=10]No Robert, Alexei during his life and in death will always remain historically significant. That fact can never be discounted.

We all agree that his life would have been short had there been different circumstances, but the very fact that he was the only son of the Emperor clearly distinguished him, and certainly not just as a simple entry in some "genealogical charts" for us to read today.

And yes I will light a candle to his living memory.

Margarita [/size][/color]

[Belochka]

I'm really surprised there weren't claimants for Michael, since his body was never found and he would have easily outranked anyone else in exile, even AN.

[size=10]This curiosity may have something to do with the fact that his wife and their son remained alive in exile. It would not have been a wise move to contemplate such a performance. [/size][/color]

[Robert_Hall]

Ok, Belochka, just what was signifcant- historically- about the life of Alexei ? He was indeed the only son of the Emperor, but there was never a lack of an heir. The sucession was secured through the Fundamental Laws.  I am not denigrating these poor children's lives  nor their deaths. Their behavior in such adversity is admirable, as the Church has acknowleged.
The topic of this thread is "survivors".  As we all pretty much agree that there were none, the only reason they are paid any attention is the speculation of that- SURVIVORS.  Those who carry on the conspiricy and collaboration theories denigrate that honour more than I ever could. I respect those who lost their lives so brutally, for whatever reason. If you are so affronted by my less than adoring attitude to them, so be it. Not everyone is an acolyte to the Romanov mystique.
By the way, I light candles as well.

[JonC]

Mr. Hall, I can't for the life in me understand why you think that  those of the Imperial Family who may have survived are being ' dishonored ' by those who hope they survived and lived.

I see no honor in being killed against one's will and for no apparent reason. I believe what has happened is that well meaning persons like yourself are projecting empathy on a victim(s), in this case, the Imperial Family. You have created an aura around them which you don't want anyone to remove and if they do its 'dishonor'. But its all in your own head and in the heads of many others out there who have placed them in a similar tomb. The ' dishonor ' you sense is of your own making/imagination and has nothing to do with those who survived. They could never be dishonored by anyone hoping that they survived.

I am sure the survivors would rather be ' honored ' by everyone giving them the benefit of the doubt that they indeed lived a full and rich life. JonC.

[Robert_Hall]

JonC.  Very well.  My opinion of the dead imperials is entirely personal. However, the Church has indeed declared them saints, dieing in a Christlike manner. Anyone who denies those deaths, therefore denies the Church's  judgement. The very Church that those who died in Ekaterinberg held  firmly on to.
 You tell the Church they so firmly believed in that they did not die. Take down the icons, snuff out the candles and tell us all it another Romanov myth.

[JonC]

Mr. Hall, The Orthodox Church Abroad has declared the IF martyrs and has deified them yes. But I consider that an extreme error. The Orthodox Church in Moscow i.e. the Moscow Patriarchate under Patriarch Alexy has refused to do so even with the discovery of the so-called ' Romanov ' bones.

I have recently been in contact with the Moscow Patriarchate because they wanted more information on the 'alexofdenmark' website which showed the survival of IF members. They wanted 'concrete suggestions ' from me for them to consider. They must believe that the IF did survive!

Does Patriarch Alexy know something we don't? JonC.

[Robert_Hall]

JonC, I too am rather familiar with the workings of both Russian Orthodox churches. Perhaps the Patriarch does know something and perhaps he is as much in the dark as the rest of us for answers. The definiitve answer about the "sainthood" has been answered.  BOTH churches have sanctified the Imperial Family. [at different times, admittedly]. So, as the Romanovs that remain within either Church recognise those decisions.
 There is no dishonour in repudiating apostasy. So says the patriarchs.

[AGRBear]

I really think the biggest factor in the different reports of who was who were caused by the simple fact that most of these guys couldn't tell one girl from the other! Think about it, most Bolsheviks came from poor families, many grew up hating the regime, they weren't the type to hang pics of the family on the wall, and even if they did, the girls in captivity bore little resemblance to the glamor shots. Remember too that all their hair had been shaved off completely bald after the measles, so it was short even after it began to grow out. In pics we see bulky, layered peasant looking clothes and almost ever present hats. While most everyone could recognize the Tsar on sight, probably the Tsarina and heir/Tsarevich too, the girls would have been harder to tell apart to someone who wasn't interested (Demidova could easily have been mistaken for one of them too, if they didn't know all the girls' looks enough and here was just another female in the mix) Also, consider they didn't have the books and internet pics we have today, and few if any would have taken the time to learn their names or even care. Not being fans of the Romanovs, I seriously doubt those who killed and disposed of the family could have named each of the girls accurately alive, much less dead and bloody. Anyone ever think about that?

I can understand how  Yurovsky and his men could have mixed up the two bodies of Demidov, age 40,  and Alexandra, age 46.  Older women's bodies are similar.  Despite what Yurovsky tells us,  it's not either of these women's bodies which are missing from the mass grave.  

Even though most posters, now,  admit Yurovsky was in error about Demidov and Alexander,  we're, now, suppose to believe that these men couldn't tell the difference between bodies of women in their 40s to that of young ladies in their twenties to 18.

If it is true, then each of these men must have been one of the following:  blind, half blind, very nearsighted or very very drunk.

AGRBear

 

[Annie]

They may have been drunk, but I still say the major reason was that the bodies were bloody and in bad shape, and also I don't think most of them really knew who was who by name anyway.

[Robert_Hall]

"bad shape" is putting it mildly, Annie. They would have been unrecognizabe to their nearest and dearests.

[JonC]

JonC, I too am rather familiar with the workings of both Russian Orthodox churches. Perhaps the Patriarch does know something and perhaps he is as much in the dark as the rest of us for answers. The definiitve answer about the "sainthood" has been answered.  BOTH churches have sanctified the Imperial Family. [at different times, admittedly]. So, as the Romanovs that remain within either Church recognise those decisions.
 There is no dishonour in repudiating apostasy. So says the patriarchs.

I wasn't aware that the Moscow Patriarchate had sanctified all the Romanovs. Last communication I had the Patriarch had not accepted the death any of them in occuring in 1918. The Moscow Church also hasn't acknowledged, officially, that the bones discovered were of all the Romanovs. The Church still believes that there were two survivors. Maybe you have info I don't. Please show me your source.

As far as 'Apostasy' is concerned I hope you are right! JonC.

[AGRBear]

They may have been drunk, but I still say the major reason was that the bodies were bloody and in bad shape, and also I don't think most of them really knew who was who by name anyway.

It appears that you have forgotten the discussion about how the bodies were not in "bad shape" and "bloody" when they removed them from the icy waters of the Four Brother's Mine.

Let me explain, again,  when the bodies were placed in the icy waters it was like Yurovsky's men were placing the bodies into  deep freeze and this cold temperature of the water kept the bodies from decomposting at a regular rate.

There is a testimony about how the bodies were in such good shape  the victims appeared to be almost alive and in a deep sleep as the Bolsheviks pulled them out of the mine shaft and placed the bodies on the ground.   One of the testimonies goes into detail on Nicholas II's appearance.....

The motion of placing them in the shaft's water  and then taking them out of the water  may have washed the bodies to some degree and a lot of the blood was gone.

According to testimonies: In this icy state the bodies were then taken away on  trucks and nine of the bodies  ended up on the ground in Pig's Meadow.  

Forensic scientists claim if this is indeed what happened to the bodies, then they were in good shape and not bloated and out of shape so they should have been able to tell the differences between 40 year bodies of two women to that of the younger women's bodies.
  
Since I'm not an expert and only watch CIA and listen to my DA friends,  I do not doubt the conclusions of the real forensice scientists and what they have established.

The rifle butts were not used on the faces until just before the nine bodies were placed in the grave.

Remember, there were no rifles used during the execution, only pistols.  See testimonies and evidence of bullets found.

The nine bodies were then placed in the mass grave....

AGRBear

[David_Pritchard]

There were no survivors!

Despite all but unanimous agreement to this statement amongst the serious Russian Historians of the past 85 years, a small group of amateur historians or hobbyists find giving up the incorrect belief that there were one or more survivors, to be as difficult as giving up the use of addictive narcotics.

It is much better to be stubborn in the belief of a truth than stubborn in the belief of a lie.

David