Author Topic: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!  (Read 53022 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #180 on: June 13, 2006, 12:31:43 PM »
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Yes, people have been convicted of murder when no body was ever found.

Also no one ever claimed to be GD Michael the Tsar's brother, his body was never found, and he was next in line for the throne!

If a person had claimed to be the uncrown Tsar Michael II,  he would have had to have passed his meeting with his wife,  whom I believe was one of the many who escaped Russia.

Let me dig out MICHAEL AND NATASHA by the Crawfords:

p. 381 -
>>It took many weeks for Natasha to travel from Russia to England.<<

p. 395-
>>Natasha, the "uncrown Empress" ....died....January 23, 1952...."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #181 on: June 13, 2006, 12:45:28 PM »
Quote

...[in part]...

And, David's point is well taken - no one has ever come forward and said they were one of the 4 grand dukes who were shot at the Fortress of Peter and Paul even though no remains of these gentlemen has ever been found. And, two of these grand dukes have living descendants today - and no one is saying that they are the offspring of one of the four who was heretofore unknown to us.

I do not know if anyone has ever claimed to have been one of the 4 grand dukes in our out of Russia.  It appears those posting here believe there were no claimants.

I'll have to dig out the information on the 4 grand dukes, at the moment I do not recall anything about them such as ages etc. so I really can't comment more at this time.  

Evidently, if no one had made any claims, there were reasons which proved this to be too difficult a task such as being married as was the uncrown Tsar Michael II.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #182 on: June 13, 2006, 12:52:18 PM »
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Quote
In other words, absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.  In a court of law, you present the "best evidence".  It would seem that in this case, you have eye-witness testimony, an established motive, means and opportunity.  You also have physical evidence that supports the claim that all members of the family were shot.  I believe the case could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury.

You do have physical evidence that five of the seven Romanovs were shot at Ipatiev.  You do have physical evidence that four of the family's retainers were also shot at Ipatiev... but ...

You do not have any physical evidence at all that Alexei and his missing sister were killed at Ipatiev.

Washington has just required that the physical remains must be obtained and the DNA identification tests must be completed in order to prove that the terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawri has been killed in Iraq.  The same will be necessary if that day ever comes for the positive identification of Osama Bin Laden.  

The case of the missing Romanovs is no different. The very same thing must also be required in order to confirm the suspected murders of those two missing members of the Russian Imperial family at Ipatiev.

The fact of the matter is, without that discovery of those two missing sets of mortal remains and without a postive DNA identification of those same missing mortal remains, you do *not* have any physical evidence at all to support your conjecture that Alexei and his sister had also been killed at Ipatiev.

This one fact alone is the only reason at all why Peter Sarandinaki's S.E.A.R.CH Foundation (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) now exists.  If there had been any actual physical proof at all of the two missing Romanov's deaths at Ipatiev then the formation of S.E.A.R.CH and the ongoing effort to find and rcover those very same missing remains would never have been necessary.

Here is the one piece of evidence which cannot be refuted:

"If the remains are those of the Romanovs then the STR and sex test data indicate that one of the princesses and the Tsarevitch Alexei were missing from the grave. This would support some historical accounts which would indicate that two bodies were either burned or buried separately. Alternatively, two individuals may have survived the massacre."

From the "Identification of the remains of the Romanov family by DNA analysis" by Peter Gill, Pavel L. Ivanov, et al.  NATURE GENETICS, page 131, Volume 6, February 1994.

JK

A voice I haven't heard in sometime.  You should post more often JK :)

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

David_Pritchard

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2006, 12:52:38 PM »
Not only have met and been recognised by his wife Natasha, Countess Brassova but also recognised by his son, his mother and two sisters. The appearance of an adult male could not have changed enough over a few years time for an imposter to have assumed Grand Duke Mikhail Aleksandrovich's identity. The only time that I can think of in Russian history when an imposter has assumed the identity of a deceased adult Romanov was when Pugachev claimed to be Emperor Peter III.

David

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2006, 01:14:31 PM »
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The best evidence in this case is circumstantial and eyewitness.  In the first case, they found intimate objects known to have been on the persons' bodies:  the contents of the son's pocket, items customarily carried by him, the belt buckle worn by the father, rings and other jewelry, and most importantly, siix missing women with six different corset busks.  (And this is only a minute listing of physical evidence.)  As to eyewitness testimony, there are the statements of the person who arranged the murder, the statements of those who participated in the murder, and the statements of those who helped arrange the disposal of the bodies.  The primary in this case, Yorovsky, states that in disposal, a fire was first attempted, at which time two bodies were placed on it.  When that method was not satisfactory, they buried the two partially consumed bodies, put out the fire, put a layer of clay over it and then covered it with soil.  Evidence of fires were found by all investigators, including the most recent excavations at the site.  The other grave was found just as described in the statement - including broken vials of sulfuric acid and pieces of rope that had been used to drag them from the mine - exactly as Yorovsky said.

Now, were two people missing from the mass grave?  Of course, but that means only that two people were not in that grave, and it means nothing else.  It also is the best evidence that supports Yurovsky's statement and the statements of others.  

It would seem to me that combined with the physical and circumstantial evidence and the eyewitness testimony, that the reasonable conclusion is that all prisoners in that house perished that night.

Bev:
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The best evidence in this case is circumstantial and eyewitness.
Bear:  Most lawyers who deal in criminal cases will agree that they'd rather have "circumstantil" evidence than eyewitneses.

Finding a pile of burnt clothes etc. does not indicate who was executed and who was not.

Bev:
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Yorovsky, states that in disposal, a fire was first attempted, at which time two bodies were placed on it
Bear:  Yurovsky gives us several different accounts about who was buried in a grave "near" the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

One account tells us that "two bodies" were burned and then buried.

Another account tell us that "one single body" was burned and buried.

Then there is the confusion as to the identity of the female who was burned and buried with Alexei.  First he thought it was Alexandra, then he corrected this by saying it was Demidova, but,  we know it was neither.  One of the grand duchesses is missing from the mass grave.

Bev:
Quote
Evidence of fires were found by all investigators, including the most recent excavations at the site.
Bear:  There were traces of bonfires but we have no idea if they were to burn a body/bodies or to keep warm,  to roast a chicken, or,  in need of fire which lit the night so they could see.

Bev:
Quote
The other grave was found just as described in the statement - including broken vials of sulfuric acid and pieces of rope that had been used to drag them from the mine - exactly as Yorovsky said.
Bear:  Since Yurovsky was accurate with the mass grave and supposedly left a note which tells the general location of the mass grave, then why is it that we can't find the buriel place of two  "near" the mass grave?  Either "near" isn't  "near" or  they were not buried in the meadow or near the meadow....
OR,  there is the slight possibility the two who are missing may have survived a hour, two hours,  two days, two weeks, a year...... For all we know they may have been buried in the woods near Perm.  [Just thought I toss that in since I know how much most of you like me to mention Perm. ]

AGRBear


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2006, 01:23:12 PM »
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Not only have met and been recognised by his wife Natasha, Countess Brassova but also recognised by his son, his mother and two sisters.

Oh, but you know he and his supporters would just say they were 'lying to get his money'  ::)

Quote
The appearance of an adult male could not have changed enough over a few years time for an imposter to have assumed Grand Duke Mikhail Aleksandrovich's identity. The only time that I can think of in Russian history when an imposter has assumed the identity of a deceased adult Romanov was when Pugachev claimed to be Emperor Peter III.

David

Well, maybe Natasha would have fallen in love with the imposter and claimed him so she could keep him, like in "Somersby" ;)

Offline Bev

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #186 on: June 13, 2006, 02:02:39 PM »
Your first statement, that "lawyers prefer circumstantial...evidence" is a strawman argument.  It doesn't matter in the least what kind of evidence is preferred, the evidence is simply the evidence, whether it be empirical, anecdotal, circumstantial or eyewitness.  Preference for any or all, is a matter of personal judgement.

You second statement is true enough; " finding a pile of burnt clothes does not indicate..." however, the type of burnt clothing found, especially an item such as a corset busk, (and six sets) is an intimate garment worn under regular clothing (and unless those directly involved with the murders carried six corsets into the area and burned them independent of the six missing women) and directly supports the eyewitness testimony that the bodies were undressed and the items burnt.  Along with other personal items identified as belonging to the missing victims, it presents a substantial case.

The third statement that Yurovsky gave different statements of exactly whose bodies were in the pit, is correct, however, he never wavered in stating that there were nine bodies in the pit.  He himself stated that they attempted to dispose of two bodies by cremation and these bodies were buried separately from the others.  

Your fourth statement again corroborates Yurovsky's account.  He stated that bonfires were made, and there is evidence of the bonfires.

Your last statement is another strawman argument.  As I have said, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.  The fact that the grave hasn't been found means only that the grave hasn't been found.  It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, and there is circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that it does exist.  Taken as a whole, anecdotal, empirical, eyewitness and circumstantial, the evidence supports the claim, that all members of the family were killed and their remains disposed of in the manner described.

Is there a "slight possibility" that some victims survived?  No.  The overwhelming evidence points us in the opposite direction.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #187 on: June 13, 2006, 04:42:40 PM »
Quote
Quote
Yurovsky, states that in disposal, a fire was first attempted, at which time two bodies were placed on it
Bear:  Yurovsky gives us several different accounts about who was buried in a grave "near" the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

One account tells us that "two bodies" were burned and then buried.

Another account tell us that "one single body" was burned and buried.

Then there is the confusion as to the identity of the female who was burned and buried with Alexei.  First he thought it was Alexandra, then he corrected this by saying it was Demidova, but,  we know it was neither.  One of the grand duchesses is missing from the mass grave.

Bev:
Quote
Evidence of fires were found by all investigators, including the most recent excavations at the site.
Bear:  There were traces of bonfires but we have no idea if they were to burn a body/bodies or to keep warm,  to roast a chicken, or,  in need of fire which lit the night so they could see.

Bev:
Quote
The other grave was found just as described in the statement - including broken vials of sulfuric acid and pieces of rope that had been used to drag them from the mine - exactly as Yorovsky said.
Bear:  Since Yurovsky was accurate with the mass grave and supposedly left a note which tells the general location of the mass grave, then why is it that we can't find the buriel place of two  "near" the mass grave?  Either "near" isn't  "near" or  they were not buried in the meadow or near the meadow....
OR,  there is the slight possibility the two who are missing may have survived a hour, two hours,  two days, two weeks, a year...... For all we know they may have been buried in the woods near Perm.  [Just thought I toss that in since I know how much most of you like me to mention Perm. ]

AGRBear



Hi Bear!

All of the most serious inconsistences in those numerous tellings of the Romanov story have always revolved around the fate of those two missing bodies... most notably, the very obvious difference in the number of missing bodies that were reported in the 1920 "Yurovsky Note" (two), in Yurovsky's 1922 memoir (one), and in Peter Ermakov's claims that there were no missing bodies... that they had *all* been burnt to ash.

On this, we can all agree:  The truth never changes, so a person who is telling the truth should consistently tell the same story time after time.

But... If the telling of a single story keeps changing in all of its most important details...
 
If the people who are telling the story never manage to tell the details of that same story the same way twice, then that's a very good sign that the people who are telling the story are not telling the truth... because their memories of the lies that they had told the first time can never be accurate on those second and subsequent times that they attempt to tell the same story.

If Yurovsky and Ermakov had actually been telling the truth about those two missing bodies, then they would consistently have told the same story... but, the fact is, they did not.

You have mentioned that your opponents don't react well to your raising the issue of Perm... Well... They'll love this one... :D

The question of survivors has always been discussed in terms of the two missing teenage Romanovs' possible survival having occured by accident...

But...

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?  

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #188 on: June 13, 2006, 06:42:53 PM »
Quote

......

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?  

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK



It's certainly a thought when you consider that one of the first laws promulgated by Lenin's regime was that minors were no longer to be executed for any crimes. And we know that the Ekaterinburg Soviet -- a particularly unmerciful bunch -- showed mercy to Leonid Sednev, whose execution probably wouldn't have bothered anyone other than his family overly much.  So of the three minors in the household, one is released, and two are missing -- it's worth a ponder, anyway.

~Penny, adding some spice to the pot...
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

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Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #189 on: June 13, 2006, 07:02:49 PM »
In Sophie B.'s book, "Left Behind", she describes the sad story of two boys, ages 14 and 17 (just like AN and Alexei) who were tortured and killed because they wouldn't reveal the location of their merchant class parents, who had fled while they were in school.

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/X.html

Most of the foreigners, and all the townspeople who could do so, managed to leave Tyumen by stealth, generally at night. Their houses and belongings were immediately confiscated, and Schebaldin promulgated a new decree, threatening to shoot anyone who was caught leaving the town. Pickets were placed at every exit. Among the people who fled were the brothers Kolokolnikoff, immensely rich merchants who had built and endowed a splendid commercial school and had always spent great sums on the charities of the town. The whole family left, except two young boys of seventeen and fourteen, the sons of one of the brothers, who were still at school. On them Schebaldin vented his rage at having lost his wealthiest prey. When these poor boys refused to disclose their parents' whereabouts, they were imprisoned, and when they still disclaimed any knowledge on cross-examination, Schebaldin had them shot in cold blood, having previously submitted them to the most inhuman treatment. Their bodies were thrown down a deep well, where they were found after the Bolsheviks' retreat.


If there was an official ban on executions of minors, it had yet to reach the outlying areas of the Urals and Siberia! Also what did 'minor' mean then? Under 21? Marie was 19. 18 didn't become the legal age until the 1970's, and in Imperial Russia, it may have been 17 or even 16 since this is the age people were allowed to attend adult parties and functions. Alexei, being the heir to the throne, would have been an exception. The dolphan was a small child.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

ChatNoir

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #190 on: June 13, 2006, 07:23:57 PM »
Quote
You second statement is true enough; " finding a pile of burnt clothes does not indicate..." however, the type of burnt clothing found, especially an item such as a corset busk, (and six sets) is an intimate garment worn under regular clothing (and unless those directly involved with the murders carried six corsets into the area and burned them independent of the six missing women) and directly supports the eyewitness testimony that the bodies were undressed and the items burnt.  Along with other personal items identified as belonging to the missing victims, it presents a substantial case.were killed and their remains disposed of in the manner described.

The Grand Duchesses wore double sets of corsets with jewels in between them. Thus the 6 corsets actually came from 3 women.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #191 on: June 13, 2006, 07:27:43 PM »
Quote
Quote
You second statement is true enough; " finding a pile of burnt clothes does not indicate..." however, the type of burnt clothing found, especially an item such as a corset busk, (and six sets) is an intimate garment worn under regular clothing (and unless those directly involved with the murders carried six corsets into the area and burned them independent of the six missing women) and directly supports the eyewitness testimony that the bodies were undressed and the items burnt.  Along with other personal items identified as belonging to the missing victims, it presents a substantial case.were killed and their remains disposed of in the manner described.

The Grand Duchesses wore double sets of corsets with jewels in between them. Thus the 6 corsets actually came from 3 women.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

I always read they had the jewels sewn into the bodice linings. ChatNoir, have you ever worn a corset? My grandma had one, and they are very heavy and bulky, and were even more so in those days. NOBODY could have managed to wear double corsets! One would have to have been much larger than the other, and the person would look like a tank and not be able to walk or breathe very well! You must be thinking of the bodices beneath them?

And, if there were only 3 corsets, where were the other 3? We only have one missing female body! It doesn't add up. Bev's post does.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #192 on: June 13, 2006, 07:30:53 PM »
Oh and FYI to all who missed it, this was posted a few days ago in the 'final frontier' thread:

Quote
Ok,
The speculation ends here and now. We've had more than enough of the "what ifs" etc ad nauseum.
To quote Bill Maher "New Rule":
Anna Anderson/Manahan is dead and cremated. The DNA testing has shown 100% she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaievna. Period.

so...Unless and until there is genuine evidence, supported with facts, scientific documentation etc. This discussion is closed. Period. You may only post on the subject that AA "was" AN so long as citations to supporting evidence are accompanying.

The discussion of whether AA was FS may continue. But, until there is real evidence to refute the DNA testing, Anna Anderson Manahan was not GD Anastasia. Two years and far too many postings are enough. This discussion "like Moose on wall, is like a train without wheels...Very soon getting noplace" (Apologies to Neil Simon and one of my favorite movies "Murder by Death")


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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #193 on: June 13, 2006, 09:28:56 PM »
I believe that the testimony is that the jewels were sewn up in double brassieres, not double corsets.  I wouldn't doubt that linings were added to the corsets and more jewels added, but as Annie pointed out, double corsets would be too cumbersome.  The fact that they found six sets of corset closures, would fit this previous known testimony.

Strictly in the realm of speculation, the fact that Yurovsky let Leonid Sednev go free, would speak to his ambivilence and consciousness of guilt about committing this crime.  In his first report, he claims 12 people were shot, notably "a cook, another cook", which makes me wonder if in deciding to kill the family, it was decided not to leave any witnesses.  If that was the case, Yurovsky could always claim that either report was in error.  In a close reading of his reports, he seemed to always leave several outs for himself with every single action.

Yurovsky seemed to understand that the power struggle between area soviets and the Moscow soviet would result in one or the other consolidating power - he wasn't about to favour one side or the other, and walked a fine line between both.  Every statement he made seemed to have been made with this in mind.

Offline Tania+

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #194 on: June 13, 2006, 10:19:48 PM »
I'm sorry, but i'm stumped. I looked up the word 'dolphan' which was in the posting on this thread, and could not come up with any defination. What the heck is a dolphan ? Thanks in advance.

Tatiana+
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