Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!

[Annie]

My poor dead horse   I want to let him rest in peace, but he still continues to be beaten. Let's drink those mimosas to him and maybe his spirit can find peace. I know I never will on this forum :-/

[Forum Admin]

Here is a press release from last year, stating that Elvis's DNA from know "pre-death" samples do not match post-mortum autopsy sample DNA...
I think my analogy is now without doubt 100% spot-on.

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/8/prweb271659.htm

If this isn't enough, just copy and paste this into your browser...

http://www.ask.com/web?o=0&qsrc=6&q=Proof+That+Elvis+Is+Alive


Yes Tedders, another round of Mimosa's for all, thank you! Mind the wooden swords don't scratch the furniture.

[ChatNoir]

Was not Gilliard sworn in a court of law? Was not Olga Alexandrovna legally deposed in the 1950s? So there are two witnesses who dispute under oath that Anastasia survived, or at least survived as Anastasia Manahan.

People managed to swear things under oath in this case for a very long time without a satisfactory legal resolution.

Sadly enough, you are so right. But at least the above people had an agenda. What would be the reason for a Viennese taylor to fib under oath? Or a former Austrian prisoner-of-war? The more I read about this case, the stranger it all becomes.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

[Forum Admin]

Sadly enough, you are so right. But at least the above people had an agenda. What would be the reason for a Viennese taylor to fib under oath? Or a former Austrian prisoner-of-war? The more I read about this case, the stranger it all becomes.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Maybe because, while they actually BELIEVED what they were saying, they were just, WRONG! Happens all the time...go see the Elvis thread above if you don't think it happens...
Lets face it..HOW familiar with the real AN could a "viennese taylor" (sic) or former prisoner of war real ever have BEEN? Not very credible witnesses in my book, I'd LOVE to be able to do the cross -exam of them at a trial...

[ChatNoir]

Maybe because, while they actually BELIEVED what they were saying, they were just, WRONG! Happens all the time...go see the Elvis thread above if you don't think it happens...
Lets face it..HOW familiar with the real AN could a "viennese taylor" (sic) or former prisoner of war real ever have BEEN? Not very credible witnesses in my book, I'd LOVE to be able to do the cross -exam of them at a trial...

Well, poor Herr Kleibenzetl was grilled by the Hamburg court for 6 hours, and no-one managed to poke a hole in his testimony. He lived across the street from the Ipatiev house and saw the IF frequently when he fetched and delivered clothing. Franz Svoboda was among the red guards whose job it was to clean up after the murders.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

[Annie]

Here is a press release from last year, stating that Elvis's DNA from know "pre-death" samples do not match post-mortum autopsy sample DNA...
I think my analogy is now without doubt 100% spot-on.

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/8/prweb271659.htm

If this isn't enough, just copy and paste this into your browser...

http://www.ask.com/web?o=0&qsrc=6&q=Proof+That+Elvis+Is+Alive


Yes Tedders, another round of Mimosa's for all, thank you! Mind the wooden swords don't scratch the furniture.

Oh my  :-/   It just seems some refuse to let things go.

[Louis_Charles]

Sadly enough, you are so right. But at least the above people had an agenda. What would be the reason for a Viennese taylor to fib under oath? Or a former Austrian prisoner-of-war? The more I read about this case, the stranger it all becomes.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Your assertion that they (Olga and Gilliard) had "agendas" is just that, your assertion. The same type of unsupported statement could be applied to anyone who testified in the case, and usually has been, by both sides. As for why a Viennese tailor or former Austrian prisoner-of-war would fib under oath, I can think of several, but since I do not possess first-hand knowledge of their motivations, I think it wise to avoid speculation.

[Forum Admin]

Well, poor Herr Kleibenzetl was grilled by the Hamburg court for 6 hours, and no-one managed to poke a hole in his testimony. He lived across the street from the Ipatiev house and saw the IF frequently when he fetched and delivered clothing. Franz Svoboda was among the red guards whose job it was to clean up after the murders.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Only one small problem about someone "living across the street from the Ipatiev House". See, if you had bothered to read the first hand accounts, you would have known that pretty much NO ONE got to "see the IF frequently".  Buxhoeveden used to walk along the street hoping for a glimpse, but the high pallisade wall that was built prevented that. She only got one small glimpse of an arm from an upstairs window. Don't forget that Nicholas complained in his diary about the windows being painted over with whitewash, and please see the first hand testimony of the nun bringing food, how such people were allowed only into the courtyard, were met OUTSIDE the door by Soloviev or a guard on duty who brought out the laundry or took in the clean laundry or food. NO ONE went inside.
So much for any credibility for "having seen the IF frequently" Ipatiev House.

[ChatNoir]

Only one small problem about someone "living across the street from the Ipatiev House". See, if you had bothered to read the first hand accounts, you would have known that pretty much NO ONE got to "see the IF frequently".  Buxhoeveden used to walk along the street hoping for a glimpse, but the high pallisade wall that was built prevented that. She only got one small glimpse of an arm from an upstairs window. Don't forget that Nicholas complained in his diary about the windows being painted over with whitewash, and please see the first hand testimony of the nun bringing food, how such people were allowed only into the courtyard, were met OUTSIDE the door by Soloviev or a guard on duty who brought out the laundry or took in the clean laundry or food. NO ONE went inside.
So much for any credibility for "having seen the IF frequently" Ipatiev House.

Apparently Herr Kleibenzetl was on good terms with the guards and often went into the house to deliver or pick up uniforms that he and his employer, Mr. Baoudin were in charge of repairing. In all fairness, he did not name Anastasia as the wounded girl brought in by three red guards, he just recognized her as "one of the women". His landlady, Anna Baoudin, was the one who identified her.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

[etonexile]

How them cats do love to play...

Mimosas at 12 o'clock high...under the hedge in Granny's garden...swords,folded paper hats,full court dress...most shall be allowed..."Old Pete" the gardener/major domo shall be in charge as bouncer...his word is law...erm...when one can understand what he's on about...erm...ta

[mitia]

I believe there was one survivor, and that was Joy, Alexis's spaniel who was found in the Ipatiev House by P. Gilliard when he could enter the house some days after the massacre, and later on brought to England near Windsor. And the pets were part of the IF. They helped in sharing sufferings and sorrows during these last deadfull weeks.
Wasn't there also a dog's skeleton among the bones dragged off the mine shaft, later identified as Jimmy, Anastasia's King Charles spaniel, and isn't this dog by now burried with the IF in Moscow Kremlin ? How did they manage to identify the dog ? Or is it only a king of deduction, knowing that 3 dogs followed the IF to Tobolsk and then Ekaterinburg : Joy who survived, Ortino who is last reported with Tatiana at Ekaterinburg's railway station and then completely disappeared ( though some historians say that Ortino was shot dead a few days after the massacre ) and Jimmy. The " organizer of the murder " wrote that he " seemed to remember that one of the GD was holding a little dog in her arms when getting down to the cellar ". Hence it must have been Anastasia holding Jimmy ?

[Mander]

I can't resist adding the reports that the body in the casket was not Elvis. Passer's by report seeing his sideburns "melting off" as if his body were made of wax.  (Sorry, my grandmother was an Elvis nut)

[Annie]

Wasn't there also a dog's skeleton among the bones dragged off the mine shaft, later identified as Jimmy, Anastasia's King Charles spaniel, and isn't this dog by now burried with the IF in Moscow Kremlin ? How did they manage to identify the dog ?

Strangely, the dog's body was intact and not decomposed.  There are photos of it. There has been a lot of speculation about it. Jemmy was Anna V.'s dog, and she gave it to Anastasia when she was hauled away by Kerensky in March.

Joy who survived, Ortino who is last reported with Tatiana at Ekaterinburg's railway station and then completely disappeared ( though some historians say that Ortino was shot dead a few days after the massacre ) and Jimmy. The " organizer of the murder " wrote that he " seemed to remember that one of the GD was holding a little dog in her arms when getting down to the cellar ". Hence it must have been Anastasia holding Jimmy ?

I have also heard Ortino was killed while barking trying to defend his owners. I do think AN was holding Jemmy that night.

[AGRBear]

...[in part]...

Sokolov's Report should be discussed since so many posters heavily depend upon what he wrote and collected about the execution of Nicholas II, Alexandra, the four Grand Duchesses, Alexis, and the others on the night of 16/17 July 1918.



So,  I thought,  there is a thread about the investigators but Sokolov probably should have his own thread.



....
How about something that's no longer in dispute.  The finding of the dog Jemmy found on the bottom of the mine known as the Fourt Brothers on 25 June 1919.

Sokolov published a photograph of the dog's remains.  

Sokolov believed Jemmy died the night of the execution 16/17 July 1918.

Summers and Mangold in their boook THE FILE ON THE TSAR pps. 141 [photo] and 161-2 talk about the facts of a dog being in this particular mine shaft for 11 months.   Due to the changes of temperature between two summers and a winter,  their experts believed the remains of Jemmy would not have looked like the one in the photo but would have decomposed a great deal.

It is, now, believed that the dog Jemmy was killed had been placed in the mine just a few days and less than a week before 25 June of 1919.

General Domontovich, White governor of Ekateriinburg, was in charge of the mine operation.

It would be easy to assume the Whites planted the dog in the mine since I assume the Whites were still guarding this area.  But I don't have evidence they did or that Sokolov knew about this planting of false evidence if the White had planted the dog's body.

Would there be a reason for the Reds to plant the dog's body at that time?  

Do any of you have added information since Summers and Mangold book was published some time ago, 1976

When I get a chance, I'll copy the photo of Jemmy for you.

  

AGRBear

[mitia]

Thanks AGRBear, you are a fountain of knowledge about this dog and I was not at all aware of such a complicated story. I completely agree and one has to be very wary about " the organizer of the murder "  ( sorry but I hate quoting his proper name ) reports. I am very interested in seeing the photo of the dog that was found in the mine shaft, whenever you will find a moment to post it.
As you seem to know so much, may I ask you if I am right in what I said in my former message on same thread about :
1) Ortino never really identified or found back after the murder
2) Joy beeing found blind and sheltered under a bed by P. Gilliard ( who was accompanied by another person if I remember well what P. Gilliard tells in his book of memoirs )  when he got a chance to enter the Ipatiev House a few days after the murder ?
Thanks for your great postings and for sharing your knowledge since..... " Les meilleures choses sont les choses partagées " or " The best things are the things one shares ".