Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!

[JonC]

Or at least an explanation as to which survivor could be extant and cyber-literate! I am entranced by the idea of 105 year-old Anastasia Nicholaevna valiantly typing away, posting on the AP Forum.

Simon[/quote

Simon...there has been so much time passed since 1918 that it is obvious that it would be vary unlikely that you will have one of OTMA e-mailing or posting on this website. That reality wouldn't elliminate the equally real possibility that one of their children or grandchildren would post on this site. I happen to believe that they already have done so. JonC.

[Tania]

Lol Simon,

I think we got our communications crossed. Your post below speaks very well about the years to 1921, but my input was to point out after that date to the present. Even on this forum, nobody except Bear brought this out, as she finally shared today with us.

So, yes while there was publicity, in particular, after the fall of 1921, as you point out, the information Bear brings to date in full is of value to all we have been over on this thread, and perhaps to other threads as well.

Thanks for your post in clarifying what you did clarify of given publicity.

Tatiana+

Perhaps because her claim wasn't advanced until the fall of 1921.

It did not receive publicity until after Peuthart left Dalldorf in January 1922.

Source: Kurth, Peter. ANASTASIA: THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSEN.
Little, Brown:New York, 1983, p.14.

[Louis_Charles]

Bear, you really bring out the best points on issues.  

Like :

How many of you realize Jakob Yurovsky's 1920 report came out after AA jumped into the canal and rumors had spread that she might be GD Anastasia?

I saw no one bringing out this point either

Tatiana+

  to you too.

Yurovsky wrote his report before Anna Andersen appeared on the scene. And it is interesting that it was studied "after that date (1921) to the present" because . . .  :-? I think nobody but Bear "brought this out, as she finally shared today with us" because it is . . .um . . . self-evident? Kind of like how we don't usually need to mention that 2006 comes after 2005.

I'm just sure I'm missing something; perhaps you can "clarify"?

Thanks,

Simon

[AGRBear]

For posters who are not aware of Pokrovsky's relationship with Yurovsky and his "notes", here is more information.

I am not sure what you mean Belochka.  

Puzzled Bear.

Yurovsky was not the actual author of the so called "Yurovsky" notes.  

p. 417 THE LAST TSAR by Edvard Radzinsky:

>>By the way, Yurovsky was alarmed too;  evidently the rumors about Anastasia moved him to take actions as well.  In 1920,  when this mysterious, "miraclously saved' woman appeared in Berlin, he gave the historian Pokrovsky his Note, the idea behind which was  "They all died.'<<

Interesting timing on Yurovsky part, don't you think?

How many of you realize Jakob Yurovsky's 1920 report came out after AA jumped into the canal and rumors had spread that she might be GD Anastasia?

AGRBear

Perhaps because her claim wasn't advanced until the fall of 1921.

It did not receive publicity until after Peuthart left Dalldorf in January 1922.

Source: Kurth, Peter. ANASTASIA: THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSEN.
Little, Brown:New York, 1983, p.14.

Do you really truly think the Bolsheviks first learned about AA  after her story became public?

AGRBear

[Louis_Charles]

Yes, Bear, I really truly do. Check the Kurth citation. Unless you postulate that Andersen/Schanzkowksa really was Anastasia, and that the Bolsheviks were keeping tabs on her from 1918-1920, then the story does not receive dissemination until early 1921. And if she really was Anastasia, and the Bolsheviks were afraid that she was an embryonic Catherine the Great, then there was ample opportunity to kill her. Dalldorf would have been simple to infiltrate.

We both agree that AA was not AN. I accept that she was Franziska Schanzkowska, and you have not made up your mind --- or at least have not posted that you have. But the only way that the Bolsheviks could have been interested in Fraulein Unbekannt in 1920 would have been if they knew she WAS Anastasia, and had been tracking her whereabouts.

Please note that I am not saying that Yurovsky's testimony rules out the possibility of Anastasia's survival for those who wish to believe in such things (it obviously doesn't, or they wouldn't believe!)  But the 1920 testimony had nothing to do with Anna Andersen.

Simon

[Belochka]

. But the only way that the Bolsheviks could have been interested in Fraulein Unbekannt in 1920 would have been if they knew she WAS Anastasia, and had been tracking her whereabouts.

Simon

If the soviets believed she was Grand Duchess Anastasia she would have been targeted and assassinated on the spot, in the same style as a number of Russian  émigrés had faced who had vigorously opposed the regime from within before emigrating. She would have been considered a primary witness to events which the soviets prefered closed.

This is evidence enough that Fraulein Unbekannt was nothing more than an ordinary citizen of no political interest to the soviets.

[Divia]

Here is a press release from last year, stating that Elvis's DNA from know "pre-death" samples do not match post-mortum autopsy sample DNA...
I think my analogy is now without doubt 100% spot-on.

Excellent! Elvis LIVES  8-)

Seriously though, I do not understand why some people are allowing their knickers to get into a knot over this. Reading some of your posts is amazing.   :-?

The truth of the matter is there are two missing bodies and no one knows what happened to them. There is speculation. Of course there will be for we do not know what happened. Until the bodies are found this constant guessing game will contiune.  

People have a right to question what happened to the bodies.  That's history. We are searching for clues to an unsloved mystery.  

As for beating the dead horse you better get use to it.  When people think of the Imperial family and the Russian Rev, this is the one thing that comes to their minds. Did anyone live? if so who? How?  There will never be an end to it and this idea that somone lived will contiune far after we are all gone.  Deal with it. It's a part of history now, and one can never escape it.

[Annie]

As for beating the dead horse you better get use to it.  When people think of the Imperial family and the Russian Rev, this is the one thing that comes to their minds. Did anyone live? if so who? How?  There will never be an end to it and this idea that somone lived will contiune far after we are all gone.  Deal with it. It's a part of history now, and one can never escape it.

When I say stop beating the dead horse, I mean give up the old, worn out AA story already. DNA proved it wasn't her, and don't start in about the tests being rigged or wrong because where did they get the tissue sample that just HAPPENED to match the Schanskowskas? That's the other piece of it, it wasn't just that she didn't match the royals, but she DID match the Schanskowskas. If she didn't match either I might still wonder myself, but she did, with 99% accuracy. Besides, her face looks nothing like AN. No it's not because it was injured. If it were it would be a disfigured version of her OWN face, not a totally different person's face. And she didn't know the languages or use the same accents AN would have. AA was NOT AN.

I am not saying there aren't more mysteries to explore. I would be interested in a search for the missing bodies, or the spot where they burned. There are a lot of things we don't know the answer to, but one of them is not the identity of AA. She was FS. AN might still be out there somewhere but she wasn't AA.

[Annie]

 That reality wouldn't elliminate the equally real possibility that one of their children or grandchildren would post on this site. I happen to believe that they already have done so. JonC.

I'll give you this much, your Grandma looks more like Anastasia than AA did!

[Belochka]

 When people think of the Imperial family and the Russian Rev, this is the one thing that comes to their minds. Did anyone live? if so who? How?  There will never be an end to it and this idea that somone lived will contiune far after we are all gone.  Deal with it. It's a part of history now, and one can never escape it.

With respect Divia,

When the Imperial Family is remembered by the Russian people, the horrendous manner of ALL their deaths comes directly to mind.

Mrs Manahan is strictly speaking not part of Russian history. She is certainly not mentioned in any of my recent Russian language biographic appraisals.

[Divia]

Not once did I say tests were rigged? Did I? No. That is not what I am saying.

If you ask people about this(well those who atleast remember history and dont' confuse it with something else) will remember the death of the family and then say "didn't some chick live." or something to that effect.

Death and survival are one now.  You cannot escape it until there is evidence to prove that the two bodies who are missing died at a certain age and are from the family.

That is all I am saying. Nothing more, nothing less.

To get uppity about it and start to flame people is a little much.  And I am not directing it an either of you. I am just saying from reading past posts and lurking for a while this is what I have seen.

There are many theories on this.  Some should be explored, others not.
There is still a mystery to be solved.  Hopefully with logical thinking, a little luck, and with some evidence they can be answered.

[komarov]

Divia, no offence meant from me either, but while I've not exactly been round on AP for the longest time ever, I do know that when discussing topics such as this, sometimes it is a good habit not to lurk for so long.  Get your own opinions out there before not necessarily criticizing, but being short about others' opinions.  Some of us - cough cough - are set in our ways and beliefs; it is best that you get used to it.

Anyhow...

Zdravstvuyte, i gostepryimsvo k obshchine, welcome to the community!  And from here on out try to contribute information more and perhaps use a more easygoing tone in your posts.  Thanks for joining us!

 

[Belochka]

If you ask people about this(well those who atleast remember history and dont' confuse it with something else) will remember the death of the family and then say "didn't some chick live." or something to that effect.

There is still a mystery to be solved.  Hopefully with logical thinking, a little luck, and with some evidence they can be answered.

Divia,

There is no mystery I assure you. Scientific assessments has clearly identified the truth to those who want to read the solid facts.

There will always be others who prefer to believe in myths because they are far easier to accept than the horrendous deaths of ALL the Imperial Family.

The so called "chick" to whom you refer was proven to be nothing more than a fraud who deceived just a few. It made a good story, but it was not a Russian one.

[Annie]

Divia, no one flamed you, we were only trying to explain the facts. I must ask, though, if you don't think the DNA tests were rigged, why don't you believe them? They proved that Anna Anderson was not related to Alexandra's family, and she was related to the family of the Polish woman she had been suspected to be. This woman disappeared in Berlin the same time AA appeared. It's more fun and cool and happy to believe someone lived, but that doesn't make it true.

If you are truly new, we'd be glad to discuss this and answer all of your questions. Please forgive my suspicion, but we do have a person or two who are avid AA supporters who keep coming back every few days with a different name pretending to be 'new.' One person has done this at least seven times. So please understand that we veterans are very skeptical of 'newbies' who are overly enthusiastic AA supporters. Of course, if they really are new, and not a banned person pretending, they are welcome, regardless of what 'side' they are on. And please remember, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they 'flamed' you.

[Divia]

No, no. I think you are confusing what I am saying.

Not once did I say AA was real. I do not believe she was. I do not believe the DNA was rigged in any way.  As for the "royal chick" I was refering to the average joe on the street, not myself.  Thats why I said that the story of death and survival are so much a part of this now.  That's what a lot of people remember.


I simply said there are two missing bodies and no one knows where they are. People are wondering what happened to them.  I do not think that there was some grand conspiracy(though Americans do love a conspiracy) to save them, but the fact remains that two bodies cannot be found...where did they go?

That is what I would like to find out.  

BTW, not once did I say you guys flamed me.  I was reading this thread and some other posts seemed to be flames, not that I had been flamed.

I hope this clears it up.