Author Topic: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!  (Read 52968 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2006, 01:26:38 PM »
Thank you for the nice words.  Here is the photo.



Photo of Jemmy's Corpse taken July 1919 near the Fourt Brother's Mine.

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Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2006, 02:17:26 PM »
Aww...
Just in case the fates are kind and you come back someday
I don't want to live without my little Anastasia
Anastasia, your disappearance is the thorn in my side
Anastasia, you know your absence is the thorn in my side

Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2006, 02:30:44 PM »
Quote
2) Joy beeing found blind and sheltered under a bed by P. Gilliard ( who was accompanied by another person if I remember well what P. Gilliard tells in his book of memoirs )  when he got a chance to enter the Ipatiev House a few days after the murder ?

Sure it was Joy??? I thought Joy was the one who escaped into the streets and was eventually taken home to England by a member of the British Counselate in Ekaterinburg? Couldn't have wondered around blind! Also, I don't think anyone was allowed back in the I house?

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2006, 03:57:07 PM »
Quote
 
Strangely, the dog's body was intact and not decomposed.  There are photos of it. There has been a lot of speculation about it. Jemmy was Anna V.'s dog, and she gave it to Anastasia when she was hauled away by Kerensky in March.
Quote
 

Jemmy was Tatiana's dog, given to her by Anna Virubova before the outbreak of World War I.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2006, 04:23:33 PM »
Quote
Quote
 
Strangely, the dog's body was intact and not decomposed.  There are photos of it. There has been a lot of speculation about it. Jemmy was Anna V.'s dog, and she gave it to Anastasia when she was hauled away by Kerensky in March.
Quote
 

Jemmy was Tatiana's dog, given to her by Anna Virubova before the outbreak of World War I.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

In Anna V's book she claimed to have had the dog with her until 1917 when she was hauled away by Kerensky. Anastasia seemed to be its main owner, as Anna V. published letters from AN in Tobolsk saying 'your little dog is with me all the time and is very nice."

Offline Azarias

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2006, 06:28:49 PM »
Any idea what ulitimately became of Jemmy's body?   :(

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2006, 06:59:14 PM »
Quote

In Anna V's book she claimed to have had the dog with her until 1917 when she was hauled away by Kerensky. Anastasia seemed to be its main owner, as Anna V. published letters from AN in Tobolsk saying 'your little dog is with me all the time and is very nice."

I have my info from The Riddle of Anna Anderson, page 401n70. Could you please let me know where Anna Viroubova tells about giving Jemmy to Anastasia?

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Offline mitia

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2006, 02:57:46 PM »
Annie, you are right as it seems " Joy, Alexis' spaniel, hid during the murder and , when the bodies were taken out of the cellar room, he ran out into the streets of Ekaterinburg. Later, Joy was found in the home of an Ipatiex House guard, Michael Letemin. When the guard was arrested by the White Army. Colonel Paul Pavlovich Rodzianko looked after Joy who had by then became totally blind. Joy was taken to Omsk with the British Military Mission. There, Baroness Buxhoeveden went to see Joy and the dog seemed to recognize her, despite he was blind, probably because of a familiar smell. Then Paul Rodzianko brought the dog out of Russia with him to a new home in England ". All this is from an article by Marion Wynn " The Last Resting Place of Joy " which was published in ROYALTY DIGEST of november 2004. Marion Wynn also says that " Ortino died with his mistress on the 17th july 1918 and that Jemmy was found in the mineshaft ". I do not know if there is GENUINE evidence about Ortino beeing killed in the cellar room ? And judging from the photo kindly posted by AGRBear, I find it very difficult to recognize Jemmy and to believe that his body did not decompose after so many months in the mineshaft.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2006, 05:12:32 PM »
Quote
Annie, you are right as it seems " Joy, Alexis' spaniel, hid during the murder and , when the bodies were taken out of the cellar room, he ran out into the streets of Ekaterinburg. Later, Joy was found in the home of an Ipatiex House guard, Michael Letemin. When the guard was arrested by the White Army. Colonel Paul Pavlovich Rodzianko looked after Joy who had by then became totally blind. Joy was taken to Omsk with the British Military Mission. There, Baroness Buxhoeveden went to see Joy and the dog seemed to recognize her, despite he was blind, probably because of a familiar smell. Then Paul Rodzianko brought the dog out of Russia with him to a new home in England ". All this is from an article by Marion Wynn " The Last Resting Place of Joy " which was published in ROYALTY DIGEST of november 2004. Marion Wynn also says that " Ortino died with his mistress on the 17th july 1918 and that Jemmy was found in the mineshaft ". I do not know if there is GENUINE evidence about Ortino beeing killed in the cellar room ? And judging from the photo kindly posted by AGRBear, I find it very difficult to recognize Jemmy and to believe that his body did not decompose after so many months in the mineshaft.

Added to this is:

Gilliard was the one who identified the body of the dog found in the mine as being Jemmy.

THE HOUSE OF SPECIAL PURPOSE, complied from the papers of Charles Sydney Gibbes by J. C. Trewin p. 113:

>>In the courtyard, half starved, was the sole survivor of the Imperial Family, the Tsarevich's spaniel which was one of the guards had stolen.  His name was Joy.<<

I went looking for the thread which I started that all the photographs of the Imp. Family Animals but could find it.  When I found a quote with the URL in it, it didn't connect me.   Since FA is working around the clock to fix some of these problem,  I assume the thread is somewhere and will reappear.

In THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS the death of the bull dog was told by one of the guards.  Evidently,  this dog was not killed in the basement but later when one of the guard was going back up the stairs.  The bull dog growled and evidently was being agressive.  The poor thing was killed by the guard.

I do not know what happen to the bull dog's body.  

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2006, 06:23:13 PM »


Jemmy

Corpse shown above which was found in July 1919 by the Whites at the bottom of the mine shaft known as Four Brothers.

It is, now, thought the dog's body was planted.

Forensic has proven the poor dog was  killed just before being found.  

Source  in post above.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2006, 06:29:42 PM »

Ortino

His fate is discussed on p.  364 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson who tell:

>>...Kudrin recalled, one dog was killed on the night of the murders, as it came down the staircase of the Ipatiev House.<<

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2006, 06:38:34 PM »


Joy

THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson p. 364 tell us that  Joy was found with Michael Letemin when he was arrested.  

Quote

...[in part]...

.... Joy, Alexis' spaniel, hid during the murder and , when the bodies were taken out of the cellar room, he ran out into the streets of Ekaterinburg. Later, Joy was found in the home of an Ipatiex House guard, Michael Letemin. When the guard was arrested by the White Army. Colonel Paul Pavlovich Rodzianko looked after Joy who had by then became totally blind. Joy was taken to Omsk with the British Military Mission. There, Baroness Buxhoeveden went to see Joy and the dog seemed to recognize her, despite he was blind, probably because of a familiar smell. Then Paul Rodzianko brought the dog out of Russia with him to a new home in England ". All this is from an article by Marion Wynn " The Last Resting Place of Joy " which was published in ROYALTY DIGEST of november 2004. Marion Wynn also says that " Ortino died with his mistress on the 17th july 1918 and that Jemmy was found in the mineshaft ". I do not know if there is GENUINE evidence about Ortino beeing killed in the cellar room ? And judging from the photo kindly posted by AGRBear, I find it very difficult to recognize Jemmy and to believe that his body did not decompose after so many months in the mineshaft.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Tania+

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2006, 07:21:03 PM »
Dear Bear,

You are truly amazing. I see you go to infinite realms, so to speak to not only research, but to barify your facts. This is what reputable writers do. After reading much of your input, placed alongside those whom just quote others on these threads, (myself included) I would without question take your statements and quotes with the utmost realibility. My hats off to you, and my respect is yours !

What I like much about you, is the manner in which you offer your posts. Whatever others may say, you continue to forge ahead, making sure many times there is no misunderstanding in what you state, or that others might take offense. Of course you might make a mistake here or there, but you catch it, or someone will, and you respond directly. Your human, and it is expected. What I notice is that you always respond, and never shirk responsibility in responding. What more, if you don't have a response to a question, you go and find it. You check and re check your resources. I think in more ways than one, you would make a very fine published writer. Your very good at what you present, and how you present your material.

Thank you for your posts, and the spirit in which you offer them, daily !

Tatiana+
TatianaA


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2006, 03:07:00 PM »
Tatina,

Thank you for those kind words.

I have been blessed with the life where I can afford whatever book I'd like to have, therefore, all I need to do is get up from my chair and desk and look to my library stacks and pull a book out, find the needed information and give you the source.  And,  it is my pleasure to do so.

Yes, being human,  I do make mistakes and as soon as they are brought to my attention I try to correct my mistakes.

My interpretation of information is sometimes different than what others may interpret so it's important to you and everyone else that you have the opportunity to go to that source when you can visit the library where all these books can be found and borrow so you can read the source and make up your own mind.

As I have offered Annie and others who cannot have the  library as I,  I'd be more than happy to find the quote if given hints where they can be found.

I feel this is a community interested in the same subjects and we're here to help each other to find the historical truths.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2006, 03:08:43 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Penny_Wilson  link=1102890711/0#6 date=1077662849
Greg and I tried to sort out these doggy logistics in The Fate of the Romanovs, and here's what we concluded:

Jemmy, Joy and Ortino departed Tsarskoye Selo with the family, and lived with them through the days in Tobolsk.  After N, A and M left for Ekaterinburg, the three dogs remained with the rest of the children, and traveled to E'burg on board the Rus and by train with them.  The family, including the three dogs, were reunited in the Ipatiev House.  During captivity there, the dogs were fed on the upper balcony, just outside the dining room and what became Demidova's bedroom.  After the murders and during the White investigations, the bones found on this balcony were itemized as remains of the dogs' last dinner in the house.

Various guards also recount stories of the girls, especially Anastasia, teaching the dogs tricks and making them perform in the garden.

After the murders, we know that Joy was taken from the Ipatiev House to Michael Letemin's house, where he was discovered in the garden by the Whites.  Jemmy was obviously taken somewhere by someone most likely connected to the Bolsheviks, for the little dog was still available to them when they were looking for physical evidence with which to "salt" the mine, as suggested by Summers and Mangold.

Ortino's fate, we believe, is most likely found in Michael Kudrin's testimony of December 1963, when he recalled that as the bodies were being moved from the basement of the house into the truck, a little dog appeared from upstairs, and rushed into the courtyard, obviously much distressed and upset and probably looking for his people.  Kudrin is silent on whether or not the dog was behaving like a guard dog, but it would not have been out of the ordinary for a Frenchie -- a famously protective breed -- to become territorial and vicious in defense of his family, the moreso because their scents were at that time overlayed with the smell of gunsmoke and blood.  In any case, a soldier took up his bayonet and stabbed the dog to death, throwing his body into the truck with the Romanovs.  "A dog's death to dogs," Kudrin remembered Goloshchokin commenting as they stood watching.

We think that perhaps some of the "mammal bones" found at the Four Brothers were those of Ortino.

What a brave little guy he was... =)
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152