Author Topic: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!  (Read 48779 times)

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Offline mitia

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2006, 07:18:58 AM »
Dear AGRBEAR, it is very kind from you to take the time of searching this wonderful site for the right and relevent information about such or such thread, which new members like myself are not clever enough, or familiar enough with the many branches of this site, to achieve. And sometimes things are even more complicated when one is a foreigner or not fluent in English, which is my case as I am now ageeing ( 50 years old ) and my english is getting poorer every single day God makes !
Hence, please, may I ask you one more favour to help me to understand this sentence :

" Jemmy was obviously taken somewhere by someone most likely connected to the Bolsheviks, for the little dog was still available to them when they were looking for physical evidence with which to "salt" the mine, as suggested by Summers and Mangold "

The little dog was still AVAILABLE to THEM when THEY were looking for physical EVIDENCE with which TO " SALT " the mine ? Does this mean that Jemmy, either alive or dead, was taken by the bolsheviks, together with the IF corpses, to the premisses or location of the 4 Brothers mineshaft, and kind of left aside while the same bolsheviks were looking for a substance with which the corpses of the IF would be desintegrated or destroyed ?

MERCI MILLE FOIS POUR VOTRE AIDE CHER AGRBear.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2006, 04:26:20 PM »
The dog Jemmy was thought to be alive until late June or early July 1919.  It was not until this time Jemmy was killed and then placed in the bottom of the mine shaft at Four Brother's Mine.

This occured just before the White Army had to pull out of Ekaterinburg because the Red Army was just about to take the city once, again.

The terms "salted" and "planted" are terms used to describe placing the dog's body to help fabricate evidence of proof.  In this case,  it was to add to the the theory at that time that the bodies of the Imperial Family and servents had been totally destroyed by fire and that all that was left of them was found in this shaft.  These items were jewels, belt,  a severed finger and Botkin's false teeth. etc. etc..

Let me quote  Robert Wilton, who wrote in 1922 his book THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS and who was there in Ekaterinburg right next to Sokolov, Gilliard and the others during the investigation p.  95:


>>One pathetic incident escaped the notice of all these witnesses.  The Grand Duhcess Anstasia took with her a King Chalres spaniel, carrying it in her arms into the death-room.  The corpse of little Jemmy was found above a heap of cinders-- all that remained of the family that had loved her and shared with her their meagre fare.  The murders had knocked the faithful friend on the head and thrown the body down the iron-pit without troulbing to burn it.  Even in her death the little dog watched over them, and her mangled remains, still recognizable, brought final unmistakable proof of the end of the family."

If you can stomach Wilton's dislike for the Jews whom he blames as a group and not as individuals,  you can find some interesting stuff in this book.  It has been republished in 1993.

If there are any more questions,  I'm more than happy to try and answer them.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2006, 09:05:59 AM »
I think Jemmy was a King Charles Spaaniel.



The color in the photos seem to show an all black dog.

Today the colors shown in the US are Black and Tan, solid rich read with white markings...

Japanese Chin is white and black.

The Pekinese can be all colours.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2006, 02:48:16 PM »
Quote
A very kind reader of the Alexander Palace site, Francesca Belanger,  contacted us about the caption of the photo of the "second" Jemmy in the photo showing the dog in Anastasia's lap, the dog she took with her to Siberia. Our identification of that dog as a "Japanese Spaniel" may be incorrect.

We took that description from Sidney Gibbs' own testimony to Sokolov about that dog:"Anastasia had a small dog, I only know that it was a Japanese breed.  It was very small with long fur, reddish-brown...His characteristic traits were very large round eyes, his teeth uncovered, a long tongue which hung out of his mouth, I don't know which side.  He was called Jemmy.  The dogs of this breed were miniscule and were often carried in the arms.  He belonged to Anastasia, but everyone loved him, the Empress in particular..... Gibbs identified the corpse found as Jemmy without question. We used this as the basis for our attribution as a "Japanese Spaniel" belonging to Anastasia.

SO, Francesca is a dog fancier, who said that while the first Jemmy, seen in Vyroubova's photos on board the Standardt was definately a Japanese Spaniel, properly called a "Japanese Chin", the second Jemmy, in Siberia, did not resemble the breed, but rather looked like an English Toy Spaniel. We sent her close ups of the dog from that photo, and Francesca responded to us recently:
"I heard back from my friend Michele Blake, who breeds Japanese Chin, and she thinks Jemmy was an English Toy Spaniel, too, based on the picture. I did some research in Hutchinson's Dog Encyclopedia, published in the 30's, and saw photos of ETS's that look a lot like the little dog Anastasia is holding. In addition to Jemmy's solid-color head, there is also the issue of the ear-set. The Chin's ears sit higher on the head, while the ETS's head is very domed and the ears appear to join onto the head at a lower point than they do on a Chin. The English Toy Spaniels of today look different from some of the more delicate type I saw in Hutchinson's"

Nick and Geoffrey are both correct! The English Toy Spaniel is today properly called the "King Charles Spaniel"!
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2006, 02:52:01 PM »


Jemmy in this photo looks all black or maybe dark brown.  

Were the King Charles Spaniel one color in those days???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline mitia

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2006, 11:09:52 AM »
I sent the little photo of JEMMY to Mrs M. Bootle, who has been breeding french bulldogs ( the Tommyville French Bulldogs ) for more than 40 years and is also an international judge for several breeds in Dogs Shows ( Mrs Bootle judges all over Europe, USA, Australia etc...). This is her answer :

" This little dog in the photo looks almost more like a Peke than a King Charles Spaniel. The problem is both breeds have changed a lot, and it must always be remembered that the late Victorians were very keen on crossbreeding too. Solid red is permitted in KCS - called ruby, which may have been almost brown, but the little dog looks too dark for that. "

Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2006, 11:57:36 PM »
I don't dispute whether Anastasia or Marie was missing (personally I think Marie, but that's just favourites), but rather that if one of them did survive, that the rest of the skeletons in the grave are still the family.  True, there was some disturbance in the 1980s (I did forget about that) but again, not only DNA was tampered with, as I said above, and the rest is kind of hard to fake.
Just in case the fates are kind and you come back someday
I don't want to live without my little Anastasia
Anastasia, your disappearance is the thorn in my side
Anastasia, you know your absence is the thorn in my side

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2006, 07:31:38 PM »
No one is certain as to the number of times the mass grave in Pig's Meadow was disturbed.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Lemur

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2006, 07:21:48 AM »
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

Offline hg123

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2006, 10:01:39 AM »
Even if they were (what I do not really doubt), the remains must still be somewhere. Such a fire cannot destroy all of the bones. The bodies weren't cremated, after all.

Offline CorisCapnSkip

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2006, 12:19:47 AM »
Did Gilliard for sure say that?  Wasn't the Grand Duchesses' mother raised with German as a first language, and they used it as home and had Russian as a second language?

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2006, 06:51:03 AM »
I'm pretty sure they spoke English with Alexandra. If the evidence that AA was AN were conclusive, wouldn't her claim have been proven by now?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2006, 05:16:54 PM »
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Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

Yurovsky claimed that two bodies,  Alexei and mistakenly Demidova, were burned.  Evidently, Yurovsky had wanted Alexei and Alexandra's bodies burned.

Yurovsky was wrong for it appears that the female body was not Demidova or Alexandra but Anastasia or Maria.  [Russians claim the body missing is Maria's.  Maples, the American, claimed the missing body is GD Anastasia's.]

Forenic has proven that burning the bodies with the kind of fuel Yurovsky and his men used would not have turned the bodies into ashes.  The remains would have been most of the body which would have been charred.  These remains would have needed  a grave.  This grave has never been found.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2006, 08:08:44 PM »
Quote
Quote
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

Yurovsky claimed that two bodies,  Alexei and mistakenly Demidova, were burned.  Evidently, Yurovsky had wanted Alexei and Alexandra's bodies burned.

Yurovsky was wrong for it appears that the female body was not Demidova or Alexandra but Anastasia or Maria.  [Russians claim the body missing is Maria's.  Maples, the American, claimed the missing body is GD Anastasia's.]

Forenic has proven that burning the bodies with the kind of fuel Yurovsky and his men used would not have turned the bodies into ashes.  The remains would have been most of the body which would have been charred.  These remains would have needed  a grave.  This grave has never been found.

AGRBear

It is entirely possible that the bodies were stolen out of either of the "graves". It seems most probable that Yurovsky was aware there were two missing bodies by the time of the second "burial" and thus his Note accounts for there only being 9 bodies. Not a bad move during such brutal times for him to have made.

As I have said before, until or unless other remains are found, we will never be certain what happened to the two who are missing - or who the female is missing really was.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2006, 10:07:07 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Does this mean bodies could have been stolen out of the grave? Is this why 2 are missing? I thought they were burned by the Bolsheviks?

It is entirely possible that the bodies were stolen out of either of the "graves". It seems most probable that Yurovsky was aware there were two missing bodies by the time of the second "burial" and thus his Note accounts for there only being 9 bodies.

[size=10]Pokrovsky the author of the "Notes" maybe the one who faultered in his re-write of what Yurovsky related to him about the event.[/size] [/color]


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