Author Topic: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!  (Read 52983 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #195 on: June 13, 2006, 10:54:13 PM »
Sorry, I spelled it wrong, I'm tired, I knew it was something like 'dolphin' but got the letters wrong. He was the son of Marie Antionette and Louis XVI of France, taken prisoner at age 4, his parents executed, and allegedly died in captivity at age 10. He, like AN, had a lot of claimants pretending to be him, but, like with AN, they were all frauds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #196 on: June 14, 2006, 02:14:20 AM »
Quote
Quote

......

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?  

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK



It's certainly a thought when you consider that one of the first laws promulgated by Lenin's regime was that minors were no longer to be executed for any crimes. And we know that the Ekaterinburg Soviet -- a particularly unmerciful bunch -- showed mercy to Leonid Sednev, whose execution probably wouldn't have bothered anyone other than his family overly much.  So of the three minors in the household, one is released, and two are missing -- it's worth a ponder, anyway.

~Penny, adding some spice to the pot...

Hi Penny

What about adding a little more heat to that pot.. something with some bite.. like a nice hot bit of jalapeño? :-)

Showing mercy to minors at a time of war is certainly a nice thought, but more than just a touch on the idealistic side.. especially when the survival of that one most historically important of those same three minors is.. potentially.. political dynamite.

The identity of the missing daughter is still in some question... but there is no question at all about the identity of the other of those two missing Romanovs.  

That one missing Romanov whose identity is not in question is also the same missing Romanov who, as the sole Sovereign Heir, had stood to inherit everything of value that the warring parties on both sides of the revolution had wanted... in particular, the political power to rule Russia.. which as a minor, could be used to great advantage by anyone acting as a regent.

Could you ever dare to imagine that those same Cheka Guards might well have concocted a cover story of burned and buried missing bodies... in order to cover the deliberately planned survival of an heir who might have been seen as being far more valuable to both sides being alive rather than dead?  ...  A Sovereign heir who, because of his inheritance, could be seen as being far more valuable to his captors if he were safely hidden away, kept as a political pawn to be used by a manipulating regent if the need should ever arise in the future?

... and because of his health concerns, they might also consider keeping one of his four sisters alive to keep a safe watch over him, if the need should ever become necessary.  The other nine captives would then be seen as expendable and their deaths would be used as a cold-hearted smokescreen in order to mask the truth of the Cheka Guards' deception.  

Hypothetically, of course.

So....  Is that enough spice for the pot? ;-)

JK

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #197 on: June 14, 2006, 02:45:00 AM »
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Hi Penny

What about adding a little more heat to that pot.. something with some bite.. like a nice hot bit of jalapeño? :-)

Mmmmmm....  jalapeño.....  :D

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Showing mercy to minors at a time of war is certainly a nice thought, but more than just a touch on the idealistic side..


Perhaps.  But whatever any other group of Bolsheviks might or might not have done, we do know that this particular bunch showed Sednev mercy, and spared him.

Quote
The identity of the missing daughter is still in some question...

For me, it isn't.  I do not argue with Bill Maples's conclusion that Maria was present in the Koptiyaki grave, and Anastasia was missing from it.  

I suppose I should also point out that I still believe (thus far) that Alexei and Anastasia were present in the cellar that night -- I'm willing to discuss this hypothetical situation for the sake of a conversation, but I haven't heard anything yet to make me disbelieve the events as Greg and I unfolded them in FOTR.  I merely found it interesting -- though most likely coincidental -- that Lenin forbade the execution of minors, that the Ekaterinburg Soviet spared a minor, and that the only two other minors in the household are missing and unaccounted for.

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but there is no question at all about the identity of the other of those two missing Romanovs.

Nope, no question there.  Alexei is missing as well as his sister.

However, I just don't know of any evidence that would support the rest of your hypothesis.  At this point I'm sure that the Ekaterinburg Bolsheviks intended to kill all of the Romanovs and their servants -- Sednev's being spared was a fluke -- and any survival was accidental.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #198 on: June 14, 2006, 10:01:35 AM »
Quote
Showing mercy to minors at a time of war is certainly a nice thought, but more than just a touch on the idealistic side..

Yes, and since it turns out that, as I mentioned in my post on the last page, that minors were still being executed. So either Lenin's rule only went for the big cities where he was in control and the rest still did as they pleased, or that it was ignored.

Quote
especially when the survival of that one most historically important of those same three minors is.. potentially.. political dynamite.

That too. We also don't even know what age was officially considered 'minor' then and there.



Quote
That one missing Romanov whose identity is not in question is also the same missing Romanov who, as the sole Sovereign Heir, had stood to inherit everything of value that the warring parties on both sides of the revolution had wanted... in particular, the political power to rule Russia.. which as a minor, could be used to great advantage by anyone acting as a regent.

Could you ever dare to imagine that those same Cheka Guards might well have concocted a cover story of burned and buried missing bodies... in order to cover the deliberately planned survival of an heir who might have been seen as being far more valuable to both sides being alive rather than dead?  ...  A Sovereign heir who, because of his inheritance, could be seen as being far more valuable to his captors if he were safely hidden away, kept as a political pawn to be used by a manipulating regent if the need should ever arise in the future?

... and because of his health concerns, they might also consider keeping one of his four sisters alive to keep a safe watch over him, if the need should ever become necessary.  The other nine captives would then be seen as expendable and their deaths would be used as a cold-hearted smokescreen in order to mask the truth of the Cheka Guards' deception.  

Hypothetically, of course.

So....  Is that enough spice for the pot? ;-)

JK

Wow, there sure is a lot of unsubstantiated speculation and wild guessing going on here. Mind if I join in? I don't have any sources either, but since you're just going on hypothetical situtations that doesn't matter, right?

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #199 on: June 14, 2006, 10:41:07 AM »
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Oh and FYI to all who missed it, this was posted a few days ago in the 'final frontier' thread:

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Ok,
The speculation ends here and now. We've had more than enough of the "what ifs" etc ad nauseum.
To quote Bill Maher "New Rule":
Anna Anderson/Manahan is dead and cremated. The DNA testing has shown 100% she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaievna. Period.

so...Unless and until there is genuine evidence, supported with facts, scientific documentation etc. This discussion is closed. Period. You may only post on the subject that AA "was" AN so long as citations to supporting evidence are accompanying.

The discussion of whether AA was FS may continue. But, until there is real evidence to refute the DNA testing, Anna Anderson Manahan was not GD Anastasia. Two years and far too many postings are enough. This discussion "like Moose on wall, is like a train without wheels...Very soon getting noplace" (Apologies to Neil Simon and one of my favorite movies "Murder by Death")


If it's true that discussion of Anna Anderson is banned on this site, then anyone wanting to discuss the case further can find a good home on our forum here: http://www.kingandwilson.com

~Penny
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Annie

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #200 on: June 14, 2006, 11:43:24 AM »
The discussion of AA and her story is not banned, only discussion of her possibly being AN, because she wasn't.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #201 on: June 14, 2006, 12:22:32 PM »
Then allow me to re-phrase:

If anyone would like to discuss any aspect of the Anna Anderson case -- including the possibility that she was Anastasia -- then you will be welcome on the forums at kingandwilson.com, where we also talk about many other historical and book-related topics in an atmosphere of mutual respect and acceptance.

~Penny
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

David_Pritchard

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #202 on: June 14, 2006, 05:20:32 PM »
Quote
Then allow me to re-phrase:

If anyone would like to discuss any aspect of the Anna Anderson case -- including the possibility that she was Anastasia -- then you will be welcome on the forums at kingandwilson.com, where we also talk about many other historical and book-related topics in an atmosphere of mutual respect and acceptance.

~Penny

Dear Penny,

Thank you very much for offering an Internet refuge to those persons that cannot consign the Anna Anderson fraud story to the dust bin of history. You do this forum a great service by allowing them a space to continue their very gullible and often disturbingly obsessive discussions on this matter. This forum will rise in credibility when discussions about this tired and discredited identity fraud scheme have ceased permanently. Again, thank you for your great kindness.

David

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #203 on: June 14, 2006, 06:36:01 PM »
Since this thread is about survivors, David,  I'm afraid it shall continue dispite your dislike for this discussion and it will continue until FA bans the discussion about survivors which I assume will not occur until the graves of the two missing gave been found and the bones identified as being Alexei and one of the grand duchesses.

And, yes, thankyou Penny for the new forum.

Also, it's good to see you have returned to this forum.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #204 on: June 14, 2006, 07:01:07 PM »
Quote

Hi Bear!

All of the most serious inconsistences in those numerous tellings of the Romanov story have always revolved around the fate of those two missing bodies... most notably, the very obvious difference in the number of missing bodies that were reported in the 1920 "Yurovsky Note" (two), in Yurovsky's 1922 memoir (one), and in Peter Ermakov's claims that there were no missing bodies... that they had *all* been burnt to ash.

On this, we can all agree:  The truth never changes, so a person who is telling the truth should consistently tell the same story time after time.

But... If the telling of a single story keeps changing in all of its most important details...
 
If the people who are telling the story never manage to tell the details of that same story the same way twice, then that's a very good sign that the people who are telling the story are not telling the truth... because their memories of the lies that they had told the first time can never be accurate on those second and subsequent times that they attempt to tell the same story.

If Yurovsky and Ermakov had actually been telling the truth about those two missing bodies, then they would consistently have told the same story... but, the fact is, they did not.

You have mentioned that your opponents don't react well to your raising the issue of Perm... Well... They'll love this one... :D

The question of survivors has always been discussed in terms of the two missing teenage Romanovs' possible survival having occured by accident...

But...

Have you ever considered the possibility that the constantly changing claims that were made by those murderous members of the Cheka Guard about the fate of the two missing Romanovs... are a sure sign of a deliberately concocted cover story?

Bear: Yes 

Quote
Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs was not an accident?  Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that the disappearance of those two missing Romanovs had been the result of deliberate design?

Bear: Yes

Quote
Have you ever dared to consider the possibility that those very same members of the Cheka Guard who had puilled off this little deception had never managed to tell their cover story about those two missing bodies the same way twice... because they could never rememeber accurately the lies that they had agreed to tell?

Bear: Yes

Quote
Now, that one should surely stir up the pot! ;)

JK

Bear:  I don't think I need to add anything to this JK.



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline CorisCapnSkip

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #205 on: June 22, 2006, 11:22:03 PM »
Well, I've certainly learned a lot about the real Anastasia and her life and times on this site.  I agree with the person who proposes that without bodies and with no credible surviving eyewitnesses, there may have been some possibility of the two youngest children surviving the execution even if that survival was not long term.  Someone was certainly hard at work spreading stories of survival, and Anastasia's name came up in these rumors the most often, it seems, for whatever reason.  I think we can all agree that to provide closure it would be wonderful if what happened to these two children could be proven once and for all.

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2006, 12:47:05 PM »
Hello to everyone and thank you for allowing me to read your ideas.  I hope you find mine thought provoking.

First let me say the reason there is so much divergence of opinion is because there has been two sustained attempts to cover up:  the Bolsheviks didn't want to be blamed without provocation and the British Foreign Office and SIS didn't want their part known.

Justification:  well let's start with the remains which were unearthed near Koptiaki.   There are strong reasons for caution here.  DNA degrades rapidly when bodies are interned in peaty earth.  The full DNA data has not been made available for scrutiny either.  Equally, the integrity of the site was never secured and there are accounts of skulls being removed and replaced at a later date - see Radzinsky.  Let us not forget that neither the Orthodox Church nor the extant members of the Romanov clan acknowledge the remains to be those of the Imperial family.   So, I would argue that the evidence is inconclusive.  Moreover, the discovery of the remains was supposed to have folowed Yurovsky's protocol which was not committed to paper for two years and then only under oppressive conditions.

Now another twist:  Read Occleshaw 'Armour Against Fate' and 'The Romanov Conspiracies'.  Both argue a plausible case for at least one escape and the high probability that the Sokolov version of events was not  entirely correct.  He discounted good evidence that some members were seen in Perm for many months after the alleged massacre.  Also he points out the contradictory nature of accounts which leave us wondering just what really did happen.

Now this is the interesting bit:  The British Consul at the time was Sir Thomas Preston and his widow reported that he was called to the house to witness deaths but he told his wife that two bodies were not there - viz Anastasia and Tatiana.   I have two comments here : first I think Preston was there to identify a British agent ( Captain C.S. Digby- Jones) who had participated in a rescue attempt and had been shot along with a White Officer  Captain Pablenco.  It was this second rescue attempt which precipitated the murder of some members of the Imperial household - maybe even the family themselves.

Prior to this there was another rescue attempt stage managed by Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen which spirited away at least Tatiana.  She is buried in Lydd in Kent.  He was assisted by Flying Officer Poole whose father was on the China station - a viable escape route.

I sincerely hope this does not offend any sensitivities - it is offered for discussion not as proven fact.

All the best

Tranwell.

Offline CorisCapnSkip

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #207 on: June 25, 2006, 01:19:25 PM »
My suggestion for those who have heard the stories in favor of Anna Anderson being Anastasia, and are not familiar with all the other stories--if they come on this forum after these discussions have been bumped down and don't see them, merely refer them to the discussions containing facts about the life of Anastasia relating how Anna Anderson does not conform to those facts.  There's no need to flame a new poster who may be sincere--simply refer them to those discussions and ask if they have questions after reading those discussions.  I did appreciate becoming acquainted with facts I did not previously know.

Offline Jarian

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #208 on: August 19, 2006, 01:29:45 PM »
Quote
...[in part]....
The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp



......

AGRBear

Two bodies are missing.

The missing bodies are GD Anastasia [or possibly Maria] and Alexei.

The area has been dug up and these two have NOT  been found near the mass grave as testified by Yurovskys....

You can't test bodies that are missing for DNA.

AGRBear
well i think that tatiana could be the missing one beacuse if you go to livadia.org then go to links then go to who is missing and read every page i think you would point out maria and tatiana

Offline Moss

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Re: Were There Any Survivors? Two Bodies are Missing!
« Reply #209 on: September 08, 2006, 08:46:32 AM »

Hello Everyone
I am a screenwriter researching for a screenplay about the (alleged?) rescue of Grand Duchess Tatiana, from the Ekaterinburg in 1918.
This website came up in a search - finaly showing what I was after - Captain Digby-Jones - in Tranwell's (thankfuly intelligent) posting on page 14.

I could find no other mention of this rescue attempt anywhere else on the site, but it seems to me to be a crucial factor in any discussion regarding possible survivors.
Perhaps members might find an account of it in the book ‘Puppet Masters: The Secret History of Intelligence (Weidenfeld & Nicolson 2004) by John Hughes-Wilson as interesting as I did.
Mick