Author Topic: GD's deaths.. who was who?  (Read 19290 times)

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Finelly

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2005, 07:25:53 PM »
The Fate of the Romanovs contains an entire chapter describing the execution.  It was painstakingly written based on all of the accounts (and there were several per participant, in some cases) of the people in the room.  You can get a good idea of how the GDs died this way and the various bullet trajectories are explained.

In addition, the book points out that after several exhaustive searches and exhumations of the areas in question as described by Yurovsky and others, scientists have found absolutely NO EVIDENCE that ANYONE was burned.  No charred earth.  Nothing.  One can conclude from this that if Yurovsky's statements are correct as to location, then his statements re: burning the corpses are false.

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2005, 08:39:55 PM »
My library does not have this book. Would it be on Amazon?


Finelly

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2005, 09:19:39 PM »
Margarita - with your interests, you should DEFINATELY get the book.  It's usually available used on Amazon.com, as well as new.  Well worth the money.  Penny Wilson and Greg King went into newly-discovered archives of records and came up with some very, very interesting info about the executions and aftermath.

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2005, 09:40:18 PM »
Thanks SO much, Abby and Finelly, I will definitly have my mom ( ::)) order the book as soon as possible. ;D

Offline Richard_Schweitzer

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2005, 10:13:20 PM »
One thing constantly troubles me in this area of discussion.

That is, the use of the terms "execution" and executioners."

Execution, used in the sense of terminating a life, has a specific meaning (or at least it did through the time of my formal education).

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2005, 07:48:44 PM »
I have the some trouble than you reading about "execution" or "executioners", where you are supposed to read "murder" and "murderers". But I guess we must accept the fact, for the peace of the board. When you doesn't agree with the "official version" of the story about the 16-17 July 1918, you are mistreated, insulted and even ignored. After being called names in all AA=FS threads, some Forum members started to not answer my posts. Good for them. I'll no run out of the forum. I'll continue to post here. Not being answered is a little detail about I don't care. They read me, anyway. That's important.  ;)

RealAnastasia.

Offline cimbrio

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2005, 06:42:32 AM »
I cannot agree with this point. Louis XVI of France, Charles II of England and Nicholas II were executed, and not murdered, no matter how bloody or even gruesome the details may be in the latter's case. Nicholas II was responsible for MILLIONS of deaths during his whole reign (not to mention all those peasants and soldiers killed during the reigns of his predecessors! 300 years of Romanov rule and misrule!), yet he blindly went on with his autocratic policy, and felt that it was necessary to make "his" people realise he was in the right, annointed by God, chosen by God if you will. If the Romanovs were still in power today, I don't think Russia would have suffered less than it did during the Communist era. Nicholas II was as much a tyrant as were many other monarchs, some of them toppled because of their unjust and cruel reigns. The only problem is that we tend, in this webpage, to mask Nicholas and his family behind lavish palaces and happy holidays in the Crimea while "his" people, the real true Russians, suffered, starved and were flogged, not to mention sent off to the front during some ill-fated war, like the Russo-Japanese war in 1904/05 and WWI, just for the sake of Glory for Russia, which was one of the principles Nicholas ahd been brought up with. At the time of his death in Ipatiev House Nicholas II had more blood on his hands than any Communist President ever managed to have. He was the Stalin of monarchs and was justly dethroned and perhaps diservedly shot. Grantes the children were not as guilty as their parents were (Alexandra was no saint, though is claimed as one today), but the Communists could not be expected to just let them go. The story of Nicholas and Alexandra is not a children's story: it is a piece of history, and more to the point, it is about politics, masked by delightful photographs, balls and family photographs. I think even Krushchev or Stalin must have loved their wives or members of their families... shall we dedicate a webpage to them too? Sorry to be so honest but I think this is how I feel and how I see things, and I think it's how politics and history should be seen. Let Hollywood turn their story into a quaint pretty little love story, we're all, surely, intelligent enough to understand things as they were, not as we want to see them.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2005, 07:05:40 AM »
Quote
I cannot agree with this point. Louis XVI of France, Charles II of England and Nicholas II were executed, and not murdered, no matter how bloody or even gruesome the details may be in the latter's case.


Louis XVI and Charles II were both given formal trials, however perfunctory those trials might have been. Nicholas II was never given the benefit of a trial and the manner of his death can only properly be described as murder, especially since he was killed with his wife, children and servants (who were not by any stretch of the imagination guilty of anything).

Quote
Nicholas II was responsible for MILLIONS of deaths during his whole reign (not to mention all those peasants and soldiers killed during the reigns of his predecessors! 300 years of Romanov rule and misrule!)


Cimbrio, I honestly don't know where you are getting these numbers. Historians put the number of people executed during Nicholas II's reign as around 30,000 - a large number, to be sure, but nowhere near a million, much less millions. (Unless you are counting the 4 million who died fighting World War I, but Nicholas alone can hardly be held responsible for that.) Moreover, demographic studies of imperial Russia do not show huge gaping holes in the population as they do for the Soviet period, especially under Stalin, when an estimated 20 million died as a direct result of collectivization and the terror, a further 25 million as a result of World War II (as well as Stalin's inept policies). Even during the worst years of famine in imperial Russia, fatalities never remotely approached these numbers.

Quote
At the time of his death in Ipatiev House Nicholas II had more blood on his hands than any Communist President ever managed to have.


This is simply false. Stalin murdered at least 20 million people. Mao murdered 30 million during the Great Leap Forward alone, not even counting the Cultural Revolution and other purges. When studying history it is really of paramount importance to be able to distinguish between authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. Otherwise one runs the risk of not being taken seriously.
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Offline etonexile

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2005, 08:50:44 AM »
Cimbrio...how you do make us all gasp ... ::)

Offline cimbrio

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2005, 03:06:44 PM »
I don't mean to attack anyone here, not at all :) I'm just saying that we adorn this characters so much on some posts that we simply forget who they really were! I agree about the servants not being guilty, and they met an unfortunate end, absolutely. I'm not justifyins the children's deaths either, but you have to understand that in a Revolution age and sex don't usually count (look at the Royal Families bumped off in other countries). Alexandra was so blind, so enfatuated with Rasputin that she just didn't see it coming, and although I know she thought she knew about and felt Russia's pains, the truth is she didn't do much to aliviate them, save for small charity work (when she didn't have headaches or her legs allowed her to walk of course) and amateur nursing during WWI, but that hardly helped except a small portion of the suffering million Russians. I don't know the exact figure but I know that millions died during the Romanvs reigns since 1613 (and of course the Communists killed many too, I'm not saying they should have gomne on because I'm not pro-communist at all!)... all I'm saying is that there has been tyrant after tyrant in power in Russia for centuries and they knew very little of it (at least until 1917), because you can't say Nicholas II was a good monarch! I mean, he wouldn't have been bumped off and his murderes supporter by certainly thousands of Russians had he not been! Well, in a nutshell, what I mean to say is that we musn't see them and their lives (at least historically speaking) as la-dee-da pompous and generous people, because if we judge everyone by their private family life...well, there wouldn't be enough forums online to talk about them... If we want to see a children's story just put on the Anastasia cartoon movie, and stick to the facts on here :)

Cimbrio

PS-As I said, this isn't attacking anyoen on here, just the way some members here see the Romanovs...

Offline Arleen

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2005, 03:40:57 PM »
Cimbrio, I don't want to sound mean....but have you thought that perhaps you are posting on the wrong forum, that the whole APTM is not for you??  Or do you just generally like to stir people up and cause trouble by picking everything apart needlessly?  You truly don't seem to understand.....

I know you are very young, possibly you will change all of your opinions in 10 years time.

..Arleen

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2005, 04:33:44 PM »
Cimbrio's 20. An adult. (Although to a 14 year old, that's old.)  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Finelly

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2005, 06:44:13 PM »
I thought this Board is for people interested in the Romanovs.

You can be very interested in this period of history and in the Romanovs, and not feel that their murders were wrong or unjustified.  

Certainly, with regard to the Grand Duchesses, when I go to those forums I am struck by how much people (in particular the younger posters) project their own feelings, lives, and desires on the four Romanov daughters, who, quite frankly, we know hardly anything about.  I can see where someone might object to the romanticization of the entire story.

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: GD's deaths.. who was who?
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2005, 08:38:26 PM »
What do you mean by project feelings, lives, and desires? (Not a wording I'm familiar with, or an idea.) :)