Author Topic: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters  (Read 21125 times)

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« on: June 12, 2005, 07:58:26 PM »
Hi, Guys:

               I know I'll disturb many people starting a new thread about AA. But I was always interested in her story, and it's the first forum about the NAOTMAA family and their pretenders I'm a member.

               I would want to know something more about AA supporters, for I think Blair Lovell's books is not the more accurate source to go see, and since I have this book, it's the only way to me to know a little about them. My personal truble with JBL is that for him, all AA supporters wanted to use her and were not sincere. The only one it's OK for him is Gleb Botkin.

               But I would like, it's possible, to know a little more about Harriet Rathlef, Doctor Rudnev,Clara  Peuthert, Zinaide Tolstaia, Captain Schwabe , Baron Von Kleist and his wife, Inspector Grünberg, Tatiana Botkina-Melnik, Xenia Leeds, Annie Burr Jennings, Mrs. Adele Heydebrand, Ambassador Zahle, the Madsacks, the Baroness Miltitz, Prince Frederick von Saxe-Althenburg, Mrs. Thomasius, Baron and Baroness Gienanth, Alexis Milukov, and (of course!) Jack Manahan...

               I would like to discuss these ones if someone here knows a little more info about them...Did you think all of them were AA believers? Did you think they use her as Blair Lovell claims they did? ???  Did you think they were sometimes mean to Anna as Blair Lovell states they were?

RealAnastasia.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 10:18:33 AM »
This is very interesting and since Forum Admin. wants us to take this away from the DNA papers to a new thread,  I am:

Quote
Here at 12:47 a m June17, 2005, I find myself seeing these posts for the first time. I have not finished reading them all.

That said, I should point out what some of my subsequent investigation has disclosed that might be of interest.

The "Polish" family from which Karl Maucher is purported (but not scientifically proved) to descend was actually of Frisian origin, Mennonites, who settled in and drained the lowlands of that area of Poland. These were Kashuban ((Kaszubski) who spoke a dialect of Old Dutch. So, Polish data bases (unless from descendents of those same settlors) would not be any more applicable than other Caucasians.

That family was extensively researched in a German Eugenics study made in the '40s re: Inherited Criminality (none found).


I will try to add more later this day


Richard is the husband of Marina Botkin, who is the granddaughter of Dr. Botkin....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2005, 10:19:16 AM »
Quote
Having read more, but with my time limited by requirements for Marina's care, I will have to post information in installments.

As to the Nature Genetics editorial, it was the subject of an extensive discussion in the offices with the publisher, in view of its discrepancies, false statements and potential for liability particularly with respect to Marina.

It was written by the person who had been brought to Charlottesville as an expert witness in the attempt to block Gill et al from access to the tissue.

We gathered they (at N.G.) were shocked by the actual facts, few, if any the writer had bothered to check before rushing to condemn those he felt "reject" wonderful science.

I guess he had never read Karl Popper.

I will try to give example of these frustrations we have encountered. Bear with me.

R. Richard Schweitzer
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2005, 10:20:38 AM »
Quote
Having a few minutes mor, let me give some backgroundon part of the N.G. edoiorial:

The phrase that Marina "claimed to be" the descendent of Dr. Eugene Botkin was a repeat of an earlier error made by "The Charlottesville Progress."

What was not checked out was that there was a scientific determination of the relation of Marina to Dr. Eugene Botkin (or at least to his putative remains. Surprised? That's more than Maucher has to Gertrude!

Our first contact with Dr. Peter Gill was through an intermediary, Mr. Julian Nott, who was considering preparing a documentary on the ongoing determination (via mtDNA) of the Ekaterineburg remains by the FSS at Aldermaston. Marina agreed to provide blood tissue from herself and her maternal half-sister ( because her then surviving brother did not wish to participate). It was Marina's tissue which was used by Dr. Gill to identify the remains of Dr. Botkin.  These facts were easily available to N.G. - but in the haste to condemn us, they were not checked.  Very scientific indeed!

They also mis-labeled me as a "local" (Charlottesville)lawyer. While I had once practiced there (really- from there- in taxation and finance) from 1954 - 1958, and had been admitted to the Bar in 1952 before finishing in Law at U.Va. in 1953, I was at the times they referred to most recently engaged in international representation, and had been spending almost 50% of each year in England or Continental Europe. That too seemed a surprise to the N.G. people.

The details of how we were approached to intervene in the quest for access to the tissue samples at Martha Jefferson Hospital can be given (and are documented),
are too long for this post. However, we never sought access or "control" over access for Marina; rather, we sought to have the Court grant access by FSS which possessed materials from Prince Phillp that could be used for mtDNA comparisons. We asked for nothing for ourselves, and offerred to bear the expenses (which we ultimately did).

Contrary to the editorial, Jay Swett, the Judge, was very hostile to our application. We did not convince the Court to give US custody. Instead, on the valuable suggestion from the Hospital legal counsel, I used an arcane provision of Virginia law to secure the appointment of Edward Deets, Jr. (a law classmate) as Administrator of the Estate of Anastasia Manahan, Dec'd. As such, he was entitled to direct the Hospital grant access to the tissue by the scientists, which he did.Peter Gill came to the U.S.and collected the samples.

As I understood at that time, the techniques for extracting mtDNA from -soft- (as opposed to the more common bone or dental) tissue were just being developed and had not been tried on long-preserved formulin-fixed materials. Dr. Gill advised us on the possibly small prospects of success, and the potential extensive costs related - we said to proceed and signed the commission with the FSS. We understand that was the very first "private" commission evr taken by FSS. They were wonderful!

At the time of the sample taking, Peter Gill urged us to try to get a parallel set of tests done by the U.S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) which he said had marvelous facilities and terrif personnel. That effort turned out to be much harder in going through the civilian bureaucracy here in the U.S., than the commission with the British Government. But, we wer able to bypass the hang-ups, by paying for the expenses of a sample collection by an AFIP scientist; all of which was done without publicity.

AFIP did not make any of the "comparisons " to the Hessen (Prince Phillip) or Maucher  mtDNA. They simply determined that the profile they derived from their samples matched the profiles derived by the sequencing done by Kevin Summers at FSS. We understand the AFIP technique differed from that used by FSS.

The story about the hair sample, is a fable. I personally checked it out with the dealer who sold the swatch.

My reason for refering to Sex-source of sample arises because when Peter Gill first advised us by 'phone of the results at FSS, I asked whether there was a way to ascertain that the tissue had come from a female body. He paused, realizing the issue, and said  they had not done that but would do so, and we would not need to go "outside."

Innuendo and inferences have had a large role in the various materials written about these tests, our actions, responses and subsequent work - about which more later on.

R. Richard Schweitzer
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"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2005, 10:22:07 AM »
Quote
I have privately answered the young lady's query concerning my belief.

Elsewhere On this site (there is just so much random stuff) I posted the fact that may have been noted by Penny Wilson, that the S family were not Slavs (Polish Slavs) but descended from Mennonite peoples who migrated to that part of what is now Poland (south of G'Dansk), from Frisia [homeland of Menno Simons] and were know as Kashubans (Kaszubski) who spoke a peculiar dialect of Old Dutch Even to this day, a portion of the area just West of FS's homes is designated Kaszubski and there is a museum of those people at Kartuzy.

Dr. Gill did tell me of the difficulties of finding an adequate  "data base" of profiles for comparative purposes at that time. But, of course he had been led to believe FS (and Maucher) were Polish. There is also the lore of those people that the Poles could not understand them ; nor could the Germans, but Dutch traders could.

One person who did know about the FS descent was Maurice Philip Remy, probably the best informed person on this whole subject (since he had the advantage of Peter Kurth's prior work).

Also there had been an intensive study of the S family by German Eugenicists, which is part of a published study (mid 40's I think).

The point of all this exercise is that it is still believed that mtDNA descends only through the female line. Thus his grandmother would have have had to have the same mother as FS in order for his mtDNA to match FS's.

If it is ever found that the mothers differed, and were not siblings, new issues will open.

Enough for tonight

Richard Schweitzer
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2005, 10:27:16 AM »
Quote
Dear Mr. Schweitzer, I have just finished reading all of the related threads and before I study them closer, I want to just offer you my thanks for coming  to this forum and sharing your personal knowledge with us.  It is so valuable and so wonderful for all of us.
Best wishes,
Arleen


Quote
Dear Mr. Schweitzer,
I think many people are interested in this question:
Do you still believe that Anna Anderson Manahan was Anastasia? Do you still believe that DNA test was somehow contaminated and we can't trust it?


Quote
I have privately answered the young lady's query concerning my belief.

Elsewhere On this site (there is just so much random stuff) I posted the fact that may have been noted by Penny Wilson, that the S family were not Slavs (Polish Slavs) but descended from Mennonite peoples who migrated to that part of what is now Poland (south of G'Dansk), from Frisia [homeland of Menno Simons] and were know as Kashubans (Kaszubski) who spoke a peculiar dialect of Old Dutch Even to this day, a portion of the area just West of FS's homes is designated Kaszubski and there is a museum of those people at Kartuzy.

Dr. Gill did tell me of the difficulties of finding an adequate  "data base" of profiles for comparative purposes at that time. But, of course he had been led to believe FS (and Maucher) were Polish. There is also the lore of those people that the Poles could not understand them ; nor could the Germans, but Dutch traders could.

One person who did know about the FS descent was Maurice Philip Remy, probably the best informed person on this whole subject (since he had the advantage of Peter Kurth's prior work).

Also there had been an intensive study of the S family by German Eugenicists, which is part of a published study (mid 40's I think).

The point of all this exercise is that it is still believed that mtDNA descends only through the female line. Thus his grandmother would have have had to have the same mother as FS in order for his mtDNA to match FS's.

If it is ever found that the mothers differed, and were not siblings, new issues will open.

Enough for tonight

Richard Schweitzer
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2005, 10:29:36 AM »
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-Mr. Richard Schweitzer:

I am the one who posted the Nature Genetic’s article. After I posted it, I read the book “Romanovs” by ROBERT K. MASSIE in which he pointed out that Nature Genetics’ editorial had error. As you suggested, I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of your wife’s family history.    

I would be greatly appreciative if you answer the question someone asked: Did you change your mind for past 10 years? Or do you still think Ms. Anna Anderson was indeed  GD Anastasia? As far as I know, even Peter Kurth or Greg King no longer believe it, although they do not believe that she was a Polish peasant Franziska Schanzkowka.

I will respect anyone's belief, whether it is based on science or religion or pure instinct. The point of my postings was to eradicate disingenuous pseudoscience trick that is prevalent in this board to deceive scientifically lay audiences. I hope you understand it.

DaveK
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2005, 06:55:09 PM »
How did DaveK get lucky enough to get private correspondence with Mr. S and the answer to the burning question and we don't?

Offline etonexile

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2005, 07:14:23 PM »
It's who you know.... ;)

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2005, 07:24:19 PM »
Darn it!!!!!!!  I obviously don't know ANYONE!

Offline etonexile

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2005, 07:58:54 PM »
Well...you know ME...and Teddy...we'll give you a jolly topping critique if you are planning to join a country club or revolutionary cell....Teddy is in charge of spelling....he is quite often correct....

Offline Richard_Schweitzer

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2005, 11:12:50 PM »
As I look at more of the conceptions that imbue people who post, I think Penny or some other writer might be able to deal with a lot of it.

I note that at least as late as October 2004 people had the idea that something could have happened to the tissue sample that Peter Gill took back in his backpack.

Well yes, something could have, and that was another reason Peter Gill wanted me to get AFIP involved. It was also a reason we had zero publicity of the type the Hospital set up for the first taking. The scientist simply slipped in and slipped out.

Thus the second sets had no exposure like those that went to the U.K.

However, AFIP tests produced the same profile as the work done at FSS. AFIP did no comparisons to other profiles (so far as I have ever been made aware).

One thing I wished later we had done was to obtain whatever pertinent comparisons there might be to the DNA of Nicholas II (male of course, and thus not mtDNA).Perhaps that may be done some day - like old-fashioned parental tests. Possibly of little probative value,but worth knowing.

RRS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Richard_Schweitzer »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2005, 11:16:21 PM »
Quote
As I look at more of the conceptions that imbue people who post, I think Penny or some other writer might be able to deal with a lot of it.

I note that at least as late as October 2004 people had the idea that something could have happened to the tissue sample that Peter Gill took back in his backpack.

Well yes, something could have, and that was another reason Peter Gill wanted me to get AFIP involved. It was also a reason we had zero publicity of the type the Hospital set up for the first taking. The scientist simply slipped in and slipped out.

Thus the second sets had no exposure like those that went to the U.K.

However, AFIP tests produced the same profile as the work done at FSS. AFIP did no comparisons to other profiles (so far as I have ever been made aware).

RRS


So what does all of this mean?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2005, 12:31:11 PM »
It bothers me that there appears to be a big secret involved here and only certain people have access to information from a public poster who happens to be someone very close to the investigation.

<shrug>  I am extremely open-minded on the subject of AA/Anastasia but rather disinclined to consider it further if info is restricted to a certain group of people on the board.

Offline etonexile

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2005, 12:37:50 PM »
It means that AA was not AN...but she was almost certainly FS....and that people like to play games.... ;)