Author Topic: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters  (Read 21263 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2005, 08:43:05 PM »
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I am questioning the woman's credibilty in identifying a woman she never knew as a little girl. The ballerina was a known courtesan of at least 3 grand dukes, I hardly think  she would have been welcomed into the confines of Tsarkoe Selo. Especially with Alexandra's known proclivities.
Also,  a check of the mosr current and also thorough bio on the lady "Imperial Dancer" by Coryne Hall  also indicates they never met. [the real Anastasia, that is, as a child].


I am sorry,  I do not have C. Hall's book.

I have no idea if Mathilde K. ever met GD Anastasia.  And,  like I said, I know nothing about what  was said in the interview accept those few lines given above.   Perhaps her knowledge of Anastasia was through other members of the royal family.  Women's idle chatter can be quite informative so I'm not sure you or anyone can know what Mathilde K. knew or did not know about Anastasia.  And,  she did know Nicholas II very well, so,  I can't really say anything more, Robert.

You tell us that Mathilde K. was a "courtesan" to three dukes.  I'm not sure if that means she learned less or more about the Royal Family through those years.  Nor, do I know if this makes her less or more believeable.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2005, 08:51:02 PM »
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Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich

Lili von Dehn

Tatiana Botkin Melnik

Felix Dassel

Zenaida Tolstoy

Marianne Nilov, widow of the Commander of the Standart

Princess Martha of Sweden, Crown-Princess of Norway

George Romanovsky, Duke of Leuchtenberg

General Max Hoffmann

Prince Sigismund of Prussia (a first cousin)

Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg

Princess Xenia Georgievna


Tentatively:

Admiral Papa-Federov ("If she would only speak Russian, I would acknowledge her on the spot")

Alexis Volkov ("If I now say that it is she, and others later claim the reverse, where would I be then?")

Alexandra Tegleva-Gilliard


Thanks Penny.

Someone want to help us out and point me to the sources, dates and when or if they [Penny's and Annie's list] met AA?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2005, 08:51:56 PM »
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I have a lot of cousins and with many I have small personal stories which only we know.  Did AA tell Xenia one of those stories or was it something else since you are indicating that she believed AA was GD Anastasia?

AGRBear


From Peter Kurth, Anastasia:

...Xenia had no intention of joining battle with Gilliard, but she did endeavor to answer the charge. "I shouldn't say that even after prolonged association I recognized the claimant visually," she explained. "... Fourteen years had passed since I last saw Anastasia in the Crimea in the Spring of 1914, but I felt I was competent to make up my mind on the difference between a member of my own family and an unfortunate Polish peasant woman who, so it was claimed, had been taught these things." There were specifics. "There was an all-around family resemblance, particularly on her mother's side."  There was Anastasia's chronic moodiness, which reminded Xenia of the "frightfully temperamental" cousin she had known in Russia.  There was the commanding bearing, the hot temper, and the tendency to melancholy that Xenia remembered in her godmother, Empress Alexandra.  And there were, as always, Anastasia's stunning blue eyes: "Her father, the Tsar, and his sister, Grand Duchess Xenia, had similarly expressive eyes as I recall." (page 216)

"... I felt that if she were separated from doubtful people accused of suggesting memories and facts which she claimed to know, then her true identity and personality must reveal itself.  This in my opinion is exactly how it turned out, what I found and have therefore firmly believed ever since: that she is Anastasia... I confined myself to a constant observation.  And it was above all through this observation that I was able to convince myself finally that her behavior did not consist of studied posturings or words she had learned, but rather that she was herself." (page 216)
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2005, 08:59:50 PM »
Xenia Georgievna continued:

Again, from PK:

For the duration of her residence at Oyster Bay Anastasia spoke almost entirely in English.  Princess Xenia never heard a German word out of her... Anastasia's English accent was "good," Xenia said, although grammatically she was "a bit rusty.  That is, English phrases failed her now and then."  But there were never any gaps in communication.  "The family was so polylingual," Xenia's daughter recalled, "that, when speaking among themselves, they chose a word simply for its precision, from one of several languages, including Russian... My mother deliberately substituted Russian words in the crux of a sentence to see if Anastasia would follow what was said.  She always did."  Sometimes, too, without thinking about it, Anastasia herself still "burst into Russian."  Xenia had bought her two parakeets as a gift from the West Indies.  Anastasia was thrilled with the birds and often let them play outside their cage.  "Look," she cried in Russian one day, "They are dancing on the windowsill!"  She walked through the garden with Margharita Derfelden, talking about the flowers and "calling them by their quaint Russian names."  And then once, while Xenia stood unnoticed in her doorway, she heard Anastasia speak to her birds for several minutes entirely in Russian -- "and perfectly acceptable Russian from the point of view of St. Petersburg society." (page 217)
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2005, 09:05:42 PM »
Xenia Georgievna continued:

PK, Anastasia:

Then there was the day that the past surged up and nearly destroyed the tentative friendship Xenia had established with her unhappy guest.  Xenia had invited her cousin, Prince Dmitri of Russia, to Oyster bay for a tennis game.  Dmitri was the son of the Tsar's sister Xenia and of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, the fun-loving spiritualist, and consequently was also a cousin of Grand Duchess Anastasia.  "The [tennis] court," Xenia explained, "was immediately behind the house opposite the windows of the room occupied by the claimant, but completely hidden by a wire fence covered with vines, so that the players could be heard but not seen from the claimant's window."  When Xenia went up to Anastasia's room to say good morning, Anastasia turned her back and refused to reply.

"How can I know what is the matter when you won't speak to me?" Xenia asked.

"You lied to me," Anastasia replied; "you promised not to bring them here."

Xenia pretended not to understand: "What are you talking about?"

"I know his voice.  It's one of the cousins." (page 219)
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2005, 10:25:00 PM »
Great thread Bear! I will do some research and add what I can. Thank you Penny.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2005, 11:09:30 PM »
Bear, I do not have 'pages' for you. I have read a lot in the 30+ years I've been interested in the Romanovs. I also draw from things others have posted here. But I do not have the resources, nor the time, to track down and document everything. All I can say is, I knew it, or I wouldn't have said it. If that's not good enough for you, oh well, and honestly, nothing ever is.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2005, 11:18:52 PM »
Tatiana Botkin:
Summers & Mangold page 204:
"Madame Botkin had been with the Imperial Family in exile at Tobolsk, and had been one of the last to see Anastasia. She now arrived expecting to find a pathetic imposter, and intended to end the controversy once and for all. Ti her utter surprise, she felt at once that she was face to face with the real Anastasia. Soon she had not the slightest doubt, and remains loyal to the claimant to this day."

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2005, 11:29:44 PM »
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I'm sorry Robert, I don't understand the question.

Are you asking how do I know M. K.  said she believed AA was GD Anastasia?  It was on camera and on tape in a television studio in France.  Does it make a difference if the woman was 20 or 95?  Of course it can.  Some people lose their memory at my age while others like my grandmother, who died at 96, had a better memory than I ever had.  I suppose you'd have to see/hear the interview to make up your own mind.  I, personally, have not seen nor heard it.

AGRBear


Another source Bear: Massie "the Romanovs: The Final Chapter." p. 175

"In the years following Grand Duchess Olga's rejection, only two Romanovs declared in the claimants favor. One was Grand Duke Andrew, Nicholas II's first cousin, who had seen the young Anastasia occassionally at family lunches. Troubled by Mrs. tschaikovsky's claime, he received Empress Marie's permssin to take charge of the investigation. In January 1928, he spent two days with the claimant. After first meeting with her, he cried happily 'I have seen Nicky's daughter! I have seen Nicky's daughter!' Later, he wrote to Grand Duchess Olga, 'I have observed her carefully at close quarters, and tothe best of my conscience I must acknowledge that Anastasia Tschaikovsky is none other than my niece the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna. For me there is definitely no doubt: it is Anastasia.'"
"On this same occasion, Grand Duke Andrew's wife, the former prima ballerina Mathilde Kschessinska, also met the claimant. In 1967, after Andrew's death, his ninety-five-year-old widow, who three quarters of a century before had been the youthful Nicholas II's mistress, was asked about the claimant. 'I am certain it was she,' Madame Kschessinska replied. 'When she looked at me, you understand, with those eyes, that was it. It was the emperor...it was the emperor's looke. Anyone who saw the emperor's eyes will never forget them.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Mgmstl

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2005, 11:30:23 PM »
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Thanks for starting this thread. I hope it will take the AN traffic away from mine.

As for Mathilde's comments, I will not call her a liar, but after all, she was 95 years old and had not really ever seen Anastasia in real life enough to know her. Just saying the eyes remind her of Nicky means nothing. A lot of people have the same color eyes.




While Mathilde's statements may not be of the greatest importance, I think it is significant to remember that Princess Xenia stated the same thing about the startling blue eyes so resembling the depth of those of Tsar Nicholas.... This was some 40 years later.'

As far as taking traffic from "your" thread, I didn't realize you owned the thread, perhaps I will create a few and then throw a fit when you post on them...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Mgmstl »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2005, 11:51:34 PM »
Here you go Bear
Princess Cecilie Robert Massie The Romanovs: The Final Chapter p.168

"Gradually, other members of the former German Imperial family followed. In 1925 Crown Princess Cecilie, the former kaiser's daughter-in-law, called on the claimant. Cecilie was 'struck at first by the youtn person's resemblance to the tsar's mother and to the tsar himself, but I could see nothing of the tsarina in her." Again, Mrs. Tschaikovsky provided no help. 'It was virtually impossible to communicate with the young person,' Cecilie observed. 'She reamined completely silent, either from obstinacy or because she was totally bewildered.' Subsequently, Crown Princess Cecilie's opinion wavered, as had Princess Irene's. 'I almost believe it must be she,' Cecilie declared. But, as Anastasia's Aunt Irene and her Uncle Ernst of Hesse opposed the claim, Cecilie decided that 'it was not my business to follow up one the question of her identity.'
"By 1952, after three subsequewnt visits to the claimant, the corwn princess had changed her mind. 'Today I am convinced she is hte tsar's youngest daughter,' she said. 'I detect her mother's features in her.''

That was not difficult information to find nor is it unreasonable to ask for a source.
Hope that helps you Bear, it did me.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Mgmstl

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2005, 11:58:53 PM »
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Here you go Bear
Princess Cecilie Robert Massie The Romanovs: The Final Chapter p.168

"Gradually, other members of the former German Imperial family followed. In 1925 Crown Princess Cecilie, the former kaiser's daughter-in-law, called on the claimant. Cecilie was 'struck at first by the youtn person's resemblance to the tsar's mother and to the tsar himself, but I could see nothing of the tsarina in her." Again, Mrs. Tschaikovsky provided no help. 'It was virtually impossible to communicate with the young person,' Cecilie observed. 'She reamined completely silent, either from obstinacy or because she was totally bewildered.' Subsequently, Crown Princess Cecilie's opinion wavered, as had Princess Irene's. 'I almost believe it must be she,' Cecilie declared. But, as Anastasia's Aunt Irene and her Uncle Ernst of Hesse opposed the claim, Cecilie decided that 'it was not my business to follow up one the question of her identity.'
"By 1952, after three subsequewnt visits to the claimant, the corwn princess had changed her mind. 'Today I am convinced she is hte tsar's youngest daughter,' she said. 'I detect her mother's features in her.''

That was not difficult information to find nor is it unreasonable to ask for a source.
Hope that helps you Bear, it did me.


Lexi,  I had read this before in one of the books.  It is interesting to know that the German Crown Princess recognized her.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2005, 12:03:14 AM »


Michael, I thought I'd take a second and look it up since Anne didn't have the time or the resources to track it down.

Quote
Bear, I do not have 'pages' for you. I have read a lot in the 30+ years I've been interested in the Romanovs. I also draw from things others have posted here. But I do not have the resources, nor the time, to track down and document everything. All I can say is, I knew it, or I wouldn't have said it. If that's not good enough for you, oh well, and honestly, nothing ever is.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2005, 12:22:26 AM »
Another believer according to Massie in The Final Chapter p. 168

"Meanwhile, another Hohenzollern, Princess Irene's son Prince Sigismund of Prussia, dispathed from his home in Costa Rica a list of eighteen questions for the claimant to answer. They were secret things from their childhood, he said, which only his cousin could know. The claimant answered sufficiently well for Sigismund, sight unseen to announce, 'This has convinced me. She is undoubtedly Anastasia of Ruissia.' Even told the ex-Kaiser Wilhelm II, living in exile in Holland, sent his second wife, Empress Hermine, to visit the claimant in a German sanatorium. Now statement was issued, but from the august quarter silence was assumed to mean assent."

Wouldn't you love to see the list of those 18 questions and the response? I wonder if that is available anywhere.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Finelly

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2005, 12:26:23 AM »
I read somewhere, but do not recall where, that the questions Prince Sigismund wrote up were benign and could have been answered correclty in a number of ways.....

I do not have a source for this and am curious to know if anyone has read this.  Penny?  You probably have read more than any of us....