Author Topic: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters  (Read 22838 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2005, 02:20:36 PM »
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Bear, I do not have 'pages' for you. I have read a lot in the 30+ years I've been interested in the Romanovs. I also draw from things others have posted here. But I do not have the resources, nor the time, to track down and document everything. All I can say is, I knew it, or I wouldn't have said it. If that's not good enough for you, oh well, and honestly, nothing ever is.


How do I approach Annie's hurt feelings when there was no intention of hurting her feelings.   My asking of sources such as books and page numbers is being asked so we can button down who said what to whom, when and where.  

If someone doesn't remember where they read something,  then just say you don't remember.  Just ask for help. If someone doesn't have the time then say you don't have the time.  Ask for help.  If it's anywhere someone will find it.   This isn't a contest.  This is a fact finding mission.

And, guess what,  we don't have to have the source in hand at the very moment you post.   You can just say, you'll be back, or, again, just ask for help.

And, let me again repeat,  I have NOT been a follower of AA so I for one really need these sources.  And, I appreciate those who will help Annie and others with the sources.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2005, 10:41:59 PM »
I agree Bear. I like to have the sources so I can read for myself. I want to be able to read as much as I can about whatever is posted. So I appreciate when others cite the sources. I do not think it unreasonable. I don't have all the books some of you have, but I am working on that.
And I am happy to help find sources shoud anyone need it.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2005, 12:41:57 PM »
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Another source Bear: Massie "the Romanovs: The Final Chapter." p. 175

"In the years following Grand Duchess Olga's rejection, only two Romanovs declared in the claimants favor. One was Grand Duke Andrew, Nicholas II's first cousin, who had seen the young Anastasia occassionally at family lunches. Troubled by Mrs. tschaikovsky's claime, he received Empress Marie's permssin to take charge of the investigation. In January 1928, he spent two days with the claimant. After first meeting with her, he cried happily 'I have seen Nicky's daughter! I have seen Nicky's daughter!' Later, he wrote to Grand Duchess Olga, 'I have observed her carefully at close quarters, and tothe best of my conscience I must acknowledge that Anastasia Tschaikovsky is none other than my niece the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna. For me there is definitely no doubt: it is Anastasia.'"
"On this same occasion, Grand Duke Andrew's wife, the former prima ballerina Mathilde Kschessinska, also met the claimant. In 1967, after Andrew's death, his ninety-five-year-old widow, who three quarters of a century before had been the youthful Nicholas II's mistress, was asked about the claimant. 'I am certain it was she,' Madame Kschessinska replied. 'When she looked at me, you understand, with those eyes, that was it. It was the emperor...it was the emperor's looke. Anyone who saw the emperor's eyes will never forget them.


So, Mathilde did meet AA and, to add to this, her husband was convinced AA was  GD Anastasia after being with AA for two days.

When digging around to discover the truth, we've discovered,  Mathilde was, also,  carrying the opinion of her husband's views about AA as well.

Thanks.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2005, 01:33:19 PM »
You are welcome Bear.
Now I have more questions, which I am hoping to find the answers to.
1. When did she meet AN? Is there any record of it or reference to it?
2. How much contact did they have?
I am not looking for speculation and opinions. I am going through what books I do have to see if I can learn more about this. I will post what I find, if anything. Someone like Penny may already know these answers.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2005, 02:54:02 PM »
So, let me work on this post for a time and pull in a list of what we have up to this point, meanwhile, the rest of you keep up the good work.

Start with Penny's list and then I'll add from other posts.  And they are:

Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich
 
Lili von Dehn
 
Tatiana Botkin Melnik
 
Felix Dassel
 
Zenaida Tolstoy
 
Marianne Nilov, widow of the Commander of the Standart
 
Princess Martha of Sweden, Crown-Princess of Norway
 
George Romanovsky, Duke of Leuchtenberg
 
General Max Hoffmann
 
Prince Sigismund of Prussia (a first cousin)
 
Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg
 
Princess Xenia Georgievna

 
 
Penny's List that she considered being "Tentatively":
 
Admiral Papa-Federov ("If she would only speak Russian, I would acknowledge her on the spot")
 
Alexis Volkov ("If I now say that it is she, and others later claim the reverse, where would I be then?")
 
Alexandra Tegleva-Gilliard

And the list grows:

Mathilde Kschessinska

Princess Cecilie, the former kaiser's daughter-in-law
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

stepan

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2005, 06:16:56 PM »
Quote
I read somewhere, but do not recall where, that the questions Prince Sigismund wrote up were benign and could have been answered correclty in a number of ways.....

I do not have a source for this and am curious to know if anyone has read this.  Penny?  You probably have read more than any of us....


"He asked the claimant to say when and where they had last met.Her answer was that it had been in 1912 at Spala,the imperial hunting lodge in what was then Russian Poland. This was correct. Secondly,the prince asked where he,Sigismund, had been accommodated. Anna Anderson replied that it had been at the quarters of Baron (later count) Fredericks, the minister of the court. Not only was this correct, but Sigismund was impressed because it was a trivial fact which had been published nowhere, indeed there was no reason for anybody outside the tsar´s  intimate circle to remember it. Prince Sigismund eventually testified that these answers and the answers to a further  fourteen questions had satisfied him totally: "The replies were perfectly correct and could only have been given by the grand duchess herself. This has convinced me... that she is without doubt Anastasia of Russia."  
In the 70s the prince confirmed to us that he had since visited Europe, in 1957, and met Anna Anderson. The face to face meetings had strengthened his conviction that she was genuine. We must note however, that prince Sigismund had also met, and believed in, the"Grand Duchess Olga" of lake Como. It was a belief in which he was almost entirely alone."

This quote is from The file on the Tsar by Summers and Mangold. As you notice only a few of the quastions are shown here. I have never seen the complete list anywhere.

Finelly

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2005, 07:15:43 PM »
Yes, I recall that description from Kurth's book.  I just thought that I had read somewhere an article or chapter about SIgismund, that he was not very bright or very gullible, and that his questions were innocuous.   But, perhaps, I was dreaming!  lol

lexi4

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2005, 11:15:16 PM »
According to Summers & Mangold (pp. 226-27) General Max Hoffman stated that AA was the AN in 1927.
"One of the people Hoffman spoke to about the affiar was Baron AMagnus von Braun, father of the famous space scientist, Wernher von Braun. The baron testified that General Hoffman, died in Jluy 1927, shortly after making his curious assertin, and just before he was due to visit Anna Anderson. He had been reported as saying: 'I don't have to see her, I know', as though he had inside information which had come his way years before. As one of Germany's top commanders who had been in charge of the 1918 peace negotiations with the Bolsheviks, he may have had access to privlieged intelligence about German efforts to help the Romanovs, an what became of them. But here we are left speculating - in the general's published papers and diaries the fate of the Russian imperial family is notable only be its complete omission."
This is the only reference I have found on Hoffman so far.

Felix Dassel was a soldier wounded in 1916 and treated at the Tsarskoe Selo hospital. The hospital was under the patronage of Marie and Anastasia who ofter visited there.
"Dassel got to know htem well, and after his discharge the tsarina appointed him their escort. When he learned about Anna Anderson's claims, in Germany 1927, Dassel devised a way to test her on that specific period in the real Anastasia's life. Before meeting her he wrote down a series of minute details about those hospital days, details only the real Anastasia and Maria could have known. He sealed the notes in an envelope and had them put in a a safe by the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who was at that time Anna Anderson's host. He then met and questioned the claimant, making deliberate mistakes to discover whether or not she would correct them. The claimant passed the test with flying colours. she correctly identified 'Mandrifolie' as her sister Maria's nickname. She put right Dassel's deliberate error of placing the billiard table at Tsarskoe Selo upstairs - it had been downstairs. When Dassel mentioned that she and Maria had come to the hospital every day, often with their brother Grand Duke Alexei, she accurately pointed out that they had only been able to visit the hospital two or three times a weekm and they had never brought Alexei along. The clincher for Dassel came when the Duke of Leuchtenberg referred to an old Russian colonel, who Dassel remembered well. in Dassel's words:
'...she was seized suddenly by a little laugh, a little laugh which rang in my ears, a trifle muffled, a little uneven, but exactly, exactly as of old...I could not reman seated, I jumped up and grabbed the back of my chair. "The man with the pockets!" she said. "The man with the pockets?"
'Yes, yes. He had been given that name - and naturally I had forgotten it a long time ago. It was Anastasia who had given it to him, because the warrior from the front, impulsive and blunt, always natrual, had often forgotten etiquette and spoken to the grand duchesses with his hand in his pockets...Abruptly I recognized her, I was convinced."

I believe Kurth also talks about this episode in his book, but I can't find my copy right now. :(
more to come....

Finelly

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2005, 12:08:18 AM »
Yes, that is discussed in Kurth's book.  I have never seen any explanation of how AA might have known about this rather minor little incident in the lives of the GDs.....

etonexile

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2005, 11:02:32 AM »
All of these "recognitions" are fascinating in light of what we now know about AA...that she was NOT AN...but several intelligent people thought that she was genuine....she was well rehersed...and people often see what they want to see....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2005, 12:36:20 PM »
Probably not a good idea for posters to go in the direction if AA was GD Anastasia since this thread is about people who believed she was before the DNA tests.

Thanks.

Gotta run.

Be back Sunday.

Oops, almost forgot:  Thanks everyone for digging up this stuff.

AGBRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

JonC

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2005, 06:52:36 PM »
I'm sorry but this thread irks me. I am aware of the parameters nevertheless it seems like a useless spinning of ones proverbial wheels.

I see those who believed, before the DNA, that AA was AN as hoping against hope that it was true. Ihave read some of their exclamations verifying that AN had been found and I feel sorry for them.

Finelly

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2005, 07:58:24 PM »
Great!  Then we'll assume you will not be posting here but will confine your comments to other threads.  Thanks for letting us know.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2005, 09:14:44 PM »
You feel sorry for me? Well, don't get offended then: I feel sorry for you. You think I'm a fool for I didn't believe the DNA results, and I think you doesn't analyze things thinking about the possibility of contaminated or changed tissues. Why this couldn't have been possible? I knew some cases where it happened. So, why not in AA's case? I'm not conspirative. I think that humanity is not perfect and people could do such things if they have their own interest. I'm not a bit upset our angry with you, or anyone here. I'm only surprised for anyone would think  for sure, without  being in the conspirative theories, that a DNA test could have been faked, the tissues contaminated or not belonging to AA, etc. It's a possibility among hundreds of them.

But, we are mixing up thinks. Bear is right. We are discussing AA supporters, not if she was AN, FS or whoever she was.Besides, we are free to think as we wants to think about this matter, even if people call us fools...you'll not change it.  :-/

RealAnastasia.


JonC

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Re: Anna Anderson and Her Supporters
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2005, 10:29:15 PM »
Real Anastasia,

You used the word 'fool' not I. I wasn't commenting about the posters on this thread. I felt sorry for those who had vouched for AA who were relatives of the Royal family who were hoping that Anastasia had been found. I hope that's clear.

Finelly...! We had an agreement...KEEP it!!