Discussions about Russian History > Imperial Russian History

The French and Russian Revolutions

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Elisabeth:

--- Quote --- So, I think the net result of Napoleon was to complete the job of discrediting liberalism that the Terror had begun in the minds of the the rest of continental Europe.
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This was the point I was trying to make, in a typically roundabout way.


--- Quote ---(I don't quite get the Catherine / Napoleon connection.  She died in 1796, just as Napoleon assumed control of the French army in Italy as reward for his service in suppressing a royalist riot in Paris in 1795.  He was just beginning to make a name for himself that she had probably seen only as a footnote in diplomatic dispatches, if at all.)
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You don't need to get any connection - that's just me being absent-minded and sloppy with my dates! ;)

Elisabeth:

--- Quote ---I've never heard or read of a Russian Jewish boy named Napoleon. Even in assimilated Jewish families children were given only traditional Hebrew names, which might have been complemented with European or Russian names: e.g. Yitzhak often became also Alexander, Tzvi - Grigoriy, Sarra - Sophia, etc. But no Russian Jewish - or non-Jewish - father in his senses would ever name his son Napoleon, however much he could revere the great emperor.

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I also thought that traditionally Jewish children were only named after dead relatives, who in turn had been named from the Bible. But the story about Jewish sons being named Napoleon is absolutely true. It is recounted in Solzhenitsyn's recent, very scholarly (almost too scholarly) two-volume work about the history of the Russians and the Jews. Apparently the Jews of the Pale made an exception in the case of Napoleon, because he had liberated the German Jews from the ghetto and they had had similar expectations that he would liberate them. (He told the German Jews, "don't bow and scrape before me, you are free men" - I am paraphrasing.)

Tsarfan:

--- Quote ---I admit I sometimes wonder, would Russia not have been better off if Napoleon had triumphed there? Civil rights, emancipation of the serfs and Jews, the Napoleonic code of justice, etc. Heretical thoughts!

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I don't think your thoughts are so heretical.  I have wondered the same thing at times.

However, the paradox is that Napoleon could have only done lasting good for Russia had he sought to rule only in Russia.

But he was trying to forge a united Europe under his rule.  And I don't think it could have been held together after his death.  With perhaps the exception of the Mongol khanate (which was really about overlordship instead of rule), every pan-national empire that was borne of one man's aspirations fell apart almost instantly upon his demise:  Alexander the Great's, Charlemagne's, Henry II's.  

Mike:

--- Quote ---traditionally Jewish children were only named after dead relatives
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Often - but not necessarily. In any case, only Hebrew names were given.


--- Quote ---
It is recounted in Solzhenitsyn's recent, very scholarly (almost too scholarly) two-volume work about the history of the Russians and the Jews.
--- End quote ---

I have an electronic copy of "Two hundred years together" but couldn't find it there. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems.

By the way, liberal and emancipation ideas were not that popular among Russian Jews in XIX c. Almost all of them lived in closed self-governed communities and weren't interested in common civil rights - only in a reasonable degree of religious and economic freedom.

Elisabeth:
Mike, it's either in Solzhenitsyn or else I read it on a Napoleonic web site, of which there are a multitude. Sorry I can't be more precise. But I'm sure I did read it somewhere, because I was so surprised by it.

At any rate, I thought it would be interesting to contrast and compare on the one hand, Marie Antoinette and Alexandra Feodorovna, and on the other, Louis XVI and Nicholas II.

At first glance, MA and Alexandra seem to have had little in common, aside from their tragic fates at the hands of revolution: MA was a social butterfly, flitting from one social event to the other - balls, the opera, etc., whereas Alexandra was very much a homebody, and seems to have suffered from some sort of anxiety disorder when confronted with large groups of people. Certainly she rarely appeared in public and then only at some risk to her emotional well being. Yes, both were beauties, but Alexandra much more conventionally so than Marie Antoinette, who was celebrated for her grace and posture but who had had the misfortune to inherit the Habsburg lip. And while Marie Antoinette was interested in going to parties and playing the role of shepherdess at Le Petit Trianon, Alexandra had more serious concerns on her mind, trying and failing to set up charity sewing circles amongst the women of the Russian aristocracy. Nevertheless, both had favorites they showered with special attentions - Marie Antoinette was devoted to the Duchesse Yolande de Polignac, while Alexandra spent much of her time with the ubiquitous Anna Vyrubova. And both favorites, like their mistresses, came in for much venomous abuse and vilification in revolutionary propaganda, which was often sexual in nature.

Nicholas II and Louis XVI, on the other hand, seem to have had much in common in terms of their personalities: both were non-intellectuals who prided themselves on being simple men. They enjoyed being outdoors and engaging in the pursuits of more common folk - Louis XVI liked to practice carpentry, while Nicholas II was fond of taking long walks and chopping wood. Both were well aware that they had not been educated to rule and both would have preferred to live out their lives as simple country gentlemen, devoted to their families. They looked back with regret at succeeding to the throne.

What else did these two couples have in common and in what other ways were they different? For example, were Nicholas II and Louis XVI both equally to blame for the fact that revolutions broke out in their countries? Or was one less responsible for this development than the other? Who do you have more sympathy for, Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI, or Alexandra and Nicholas II?

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