Author Topic: The French and Russian Revolutions  (Read 22165 times)

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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2005, 06:28:26 PM »
Huge topic . . . let's start with the similarities between Marie Antoinette and Alexandra.

Both Marie Antoinette and Alexandra grew up under the influence of strong women who were ruling empires in their own rights -- Maria Teresa and Victoria.

Both entered as young women the most elaborate, etiquette-ridden, and intrigue-ridden courts of their times.

Both women arrived at their new courts with a naive desire to correct excesses and put down their own marks at the outset.  Marie Antoinette affected extremely simple dress and accessories in order to draw a contrast with Madame Pompadour and the system of intrique and sexual influence she represented.  Alexandra determined to tackle the frivolity of St. Petersburg society and to clothe it more demurely (such as the famous incident with Princess Cantacuzene).

Both women collided with formidable female predecessors (Pompadour and Marie Feodorovna) in their campaigns to establish their influence quickly.

Both married husbands who were prepared neither by temperament, talent, nor training to rule.

Both women came from countries that were the objects of serious factional strife within their new countries' foreign offices.  There were strong resentments of an Austrian alliance in France and of a German alliance in Russia.  Both sentiments showed up in later slanders -- the "Austrian whore" and the "German spy".

Both women endured prolonged difficulties in producing heirs for the thrones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Robert_Hall

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2005, 06:51:07 PM »
Very interesting, Tsarfan. I would note that in the matter of heirs, with N&A, it was not for lack of trying.  With Louis & Antoinette, the situation was very much different. Also, there is almost 100 years between these 2. Surely, even the most conservative of courts must have learned something ? [maybe not].
And, Alexandra went for "love" whilst Antionette went as a political payment.
Also, L&A had a time under the incumbent king, Louis XV, to sort of "apprentice" while N&A went in "cold turkey".
A final thought, N&A were deeply influenced by their religion, while at the court of Versailles, the influence was minimal and more for affectation. The kings having placed the Cardinals under a political cloud.
Thoughts ?

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2005, 08:02:03 PM »
Quote
I would note that in the matter of heirs, with N&A, it was not for lack of trying.  With Louis & Antoinette, the situation was very much different.


True.  But now that you mention it, that reminds me of another similarity -- their senses of isolation.

Alexandra felt rejected by the court and much of her husband's family.

For the first several years of her marriage, Marie Antoinette was deprived of sexual relations with her husband.  Apparently, Louis XVI suffered a condition in which the foreskin orifice was too small to allow an erection.  It was not corrected until Marie Antoinette's brother, Josef II, visited Versailles and encouraged Louis to have a very simple procedure to correct the condition.

Some historians have felt that her behavior during that period, which was popularly felt to be frivolous and prodigal, was actually a coping mechanism for an extreme sense of isolation and worry about never being able to produce an heir.

In fact, after she bore her first child, Marie Antoinette settled quickly and permanently into a more sedate, matronly existence.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Robert_Hall

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2005, 08:08:59 PM »
Yes, I guess motherhood can do that to some people. {I was not going to get into the details of Louis' "affliction"}.

Finelly

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2005, 09:29:01 PM »
Nicholas and Louis were the grandsons of extremely strong rulers who seem to have lacked the proper education and temperament to rule equally well.

The French people and the Russian people boiled over with generations of repressed anger at their monarchs and thus the violence was inevitable.

A difference:  The french commoners spoke french and the russian people spoke russian. <g>

Silja

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2005, 08:58:25 AM »
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The French people and the Russian people boiled over with generations of repressed anger at their monarchs and thus the violence was inevitable.

. <g>


In fact in France people's  anger was not really directed against  the monarch, at least not in the case of Louis XVI, but against the system of privilege.
And this is also a difference between the French and the Russian Revolution. In the beginning the French Revolution, or, rather, those revolutionaries initially in power, had a constitutional monarchy in mind, whereas in Russia this option never really stood a chance.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2005, 08:58:59 AM »
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{I was not going to get into the details of Louis' "affliction"}.


Sorry.  I can get a little clinical sometimes without realizing it.

Silja

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2005, 09:26:40 AM »
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Solzhenitsyn's recent, very scholarly (almost too scholarly) two-volume work about the history of the Russians and the Jews.


I haven't read the book, but Arno Lustiger, a German historian, who has written a book about Stalin and the Jews (available in English) criticized Solzhenitsyn's book for being rather unscholarly as well as antisemitic. Among other things, Lustiger accuses the author of text manipulations and of having used sources very selectively. Solzhenitsyn does not use primary sources such as the statements made by the victims, and he doesn't consult key works such as Die Judenprogrome in Rußland (Cologne, 1909) or  the conference volume Pogroms: Anti-Jewish Violence in Modern Russian History, (1992),ed. by Klier/Lambroza.
So apparently the approach is very biased.
In his review (from June 2002) Lustiger even asks the rhetorical question whether S. would like it if the history of the GULag had been written by Soviet civil servants.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Silja »

Offline RichC

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2005, 11:37:13 AM »
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Even Jane Hull of Hull House, a great admirer of both Tolstoy and his daughter, could not countenance the idea that the socialists in the Soviet Union were deliberately starving and terrorizing the peasantry.  


Hi Elisabeth.  Are you possibly referring to Jane Addams here?  I've never heard of Jane Hull.

BTW, one of the minor similarities between the French and Russian Revolutions which I always thought interesting was that the French had Mesmer while the Russians had Rasputin.  Each had their phony conjurers for added color!

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2005, 11:50:32 AM »
She does mean Jane Addams of Hull House in Chicago. My great aunt and her husband both lived, worked and taught at Hull House with Miss Addams, and were very close to her. Upon Jane Addam's death, the entire staff was asked to elect a new head of Hull House, and unanimously voted my great aunt and great uncle as the new joint heads of the institution.

Elisabeth

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2005, 11:56:19 AM »
Thank you, FA, I did indeed mean to refer to Jane Addams. You must feel very fortunate indeed to have such distinguished relatives. I will correct my original post, so as not to confuse too many people!

Elisabeth

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2005, 12:22:14 PM »
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I haven't read the book, but Arno Lustiger, a German historian, who has written a book about Stalin and the Jews (available in English) criticized Solzhenitsyn's book for being rather unscholarly as well as antisemitic. Among other things, Lustiger accuses the author of text manipulations and of having used sources very selectively. Solzhenitsyn does not use primary sources such as the statements made by the victims, and he doesn't consult key works such as Die Judenprogrome in Rußland (Cologne, 1909) or  the conference volume Pogroms: Anti-Jewish Violence in Modern Russian History, (1992),ed. by Klier/Lambroza.
So apparently the approach is very biased.
In his review (from June 2002) Lustiger even asks the rhetorical question whether S. would like it if the history of the GULag had been written by Soviet civil servants.


I think Lustiger's charges are deeply unfair and reflect the bias many Western liberals feel towards Solzhenitsyn, because he has fiercely criticized the West for being over-materialistic and obsessed with legalisms. The accusation that Solzhenitsyn is anti-Semitic is an old KGB canard and has never had any basis in fact whatsoever. (The KGB, in addition to spreading rumors back in the 1970s that Solzhenitsyn was anti-Semitic, also claimed that he was a stool pigeon in the camps - and understand, this was in the midst of attempting to assassinate him with poison, as the recently opened KGB archives show. They were simply terrified of what would happen when Gulag Archipelago was published in the West.) Just to start with the most obvious fact, Solzhenitsyn's wife, who is his first and most important critic, is the daughter of a Jew. I also personally know a man who happens to be Jewish and an old and very devoted friend of Solzhenitsyn from their days in the Gulag together. He has expended much energy in recent years in defending Solzhenitsyn from just such charges.  

It's true that Solzhenitsyn's work on the Russian Jews is not one of his best - it's very dry and factual (which is why I perhaps mistakenly called it "scholarly") and seemingly lacking in inspiration, and he only consults Soviet and Russian sources. But this is a problem not just with Solzhenitsyn but with much of Russian research in the humanities in general, which still suffers from some of the parochialism of the Soviet era, when scholars were cut off in large part from Western critical sources. All I can say is, at least he made the effort. If some Russian Jew wants to write a history of the Russian Jews and the Russian Orthodox, then all power to him. But Solzhenitsyn attempted it first, and deserves credit, not opprobrium, for such a pioneering effort in Russia.

Give the man a break, anyway, he was born in 1918! He belongs to a generation that has all but left us entirely. He's written half a dozen immortal books and deserves better than to be continually attacked in the press for being "anti-Semitic," "anti-Western," etc. Personally, I think a lot of the criticism stems from professional envy, plain and simple. Solzhenitsyn, because of One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich and Gulag Archipelago, will live forever not only as a great writer but also as a historical figure, unlike all these critics and writers who attack his reputation in the basest possible way.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

Silja

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2005, 08:34:35 AM »
Quote

It's true that Solzhenitsyn's work on the Russian Jews is not one of his best - it's very dry and factual (which is why I perhaps mistakenly called it "scholarly") and seemingly lacking in inspiration, and he only consults Soviet and Russian sources.

  


Lustiger criticizes the book on the basis of its many  failures -which he describes in detail - so I think he's justified in doing this. Ignoring, as Solzhenitsyn obviously does, all the important sources (such as Nikolai Leskov's contemporary reports), is a serious flaw in a history book which claims to present the history of Russians and Jews.
As I said, I couldn't at all comment on the book myself, but I'm not an expert anyway.

Lustiger says it damages Solzhenitsyn's reputation and credibility.


hikaru

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2005, 02:36:41 PM »
I agree with our Movie Director Nikita Mikhalkov and think that the French and Russian Revolutions are uncomparable.
Everybody wants to compare those two revolutions (MA Gobelaine on the wall of AP etc.) . I wanted to compare too. But I reflected for a while and now  I think that the French Revolution did not cause so global changes , did not cause so many deaths and did not remove Russian people from their roots  so far how Russian revolution did it.

Silja

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Re: The French and Russian Revolutions
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2005, 01:56:09 PM »
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I think that the French Revolution did not cause so global changes , did not cause so many deaths and did not remove Russian people from their roots  so far how Russian revolution did it.


I'd disagree. The  general impact of the French Revolution was immense. It changed all Western (political) culture and ideology.  After the French Revolution the idea of divine kingship was dead even though the royal houses of Europe kept trying to keep it alive. But the paradigm had changed. The new ideas could no longer be suppressed.
It's the values of the F.R. that form the basis of contemporary Western culture.

In addition, it is the beginning of the idea of the modern nation state, and, on the negative side, of nationalism, still more extreme state centralism, and militarism. Moreover, it gave the world the first totalitarian system. The following centuries would then have to deal with this complex legacy.