Author Topic: Shoulder Board ID  (Read 6774 times)

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Offline Scott

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Shoulder Board ID
« on: June 17, 2005, 10:41:01 AM »
Some of you have already seen these, but for those of you who have not, do you have any thoughts on the ID of these boards:


Offline Vladik

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2005, 01:48:36 PM »
These are general's boards, but there's no rank with one star.
P.S. Can you please post whole pic of the uniform, thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Vlad143 »

Offline Scott

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 02:08:11 PM »
The boards don't go with the uniform.

Offline Patrokl

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2005, 10:32:32 PM »
Yes, I have seen this board many times. A dealer in New York had it for sale. Can you post a close up photo of the outer piping and stitching of the base braid boarder ? Also a photo of the reverse side ?  What color is the inner piping ? Looks like khaki green. Very unusual. A single star generals board insignia was normally worn on high ranking civilian functionary boards of the same ranking status as a military general. However, Functionary boards are much thinner in width. This board is made in the military style. Again, very unusual.

Offline Scott

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2005, 01:49:56 AM »
Here is a photo that shows a portion of the back of one of the boards.  As you can see, the back of the board is a dark yellow color.  The inner piping on the front is the same.  I will take better photos later.


David_Pritchard

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2005, 12:23:08 PM »
I am glad to learn that these shoulder boards might be civilian rather than military. I looked through every regiment in the 1910 army uniform regulations three times thinking that I had missed something and did not find shoulder boards with the cypher of Cathrine II.

A civil servent with the equivelent status of an army of General-Mayor, Class IV of the Table of Ranks, was called a Deistvitelny Statsky Sovetnik.

DAP

Offline Thomas B. LeMay

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2005, 01:22:41 PM »
I will leave speculation on these to others but they are definitely NOT Civil Service and have some odd charcteristics.

Brad LeMay
Thomas B. LeMay
blemay@cablelynx.com

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2005, 01:38:51 PM »
I am very much a novice on this subject, but Catherine II, surely this does not indicate the board dates from her reign ? If it does, what remarkable condition.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Scott

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2005, 02:28:50 PM »
No, these would not be from the period of Catherine II. They would be from the late Imperial period, if authentic.  I really have no idea what they are - which is the reason I posted them.  However, the cypher of Catherine would only mean that the "organization" to which they belong would have some affiliation with the name of Catherine II - a regiment, school, etc.

As an aside, one individual with some experience in this area (not on this board) has researched a similar pair of boards (same colors, but with cyphers of Peter I) through military archives in Russia and found that they were "one of a kind," authorized by the Military Department of Heraldry, and were for a Military Laison officer of the Tula Arms Factory assigned to the St. Petersburg Military District.

He has also expressed the opinion that a one star rank was usually worn by a "military functionary."

I have no idea if this information is correct, and only offer it to show that the boards may not be strictly "military" in nature.

On the other hand, they could be complete fabrications.  However, on that issue, I would state that the cyphers and crowns appear to be of fairly high quality (not cast) and appear to have been on the boards for a while - there is toning from metal cyphers on the gold ground of the boards, and the prongs do not protrude through the back of the boards.  In addition, the stiching appears to be of relatively good quality and the backs (on initial examination) do not appear to have been re-sewn.

Any further ID information would be appreciated.

Offline Patrokl

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2005, 08:34:52 PM »
one individual with some experience in this area (not on this board) has researched a similar pair of boards (same colors, but with cyphers of Peter I) through military archives in Russia and found that they were "one of a kind," authorized by the Military Department of Heraldry, and were for a Military Laison officer of the Tula Arms Factory assigned to the St. Petersburg Military District.

He has also expressed the opinion that a one star rank was usually worn by a "military functionary."

Thanks for the plug. The Tula Arms Factory Laison Officer board is one of my favorite pieces in my collection. I suspect that the board you have, if genuine, belong to a general assigned to one of the military school that was named after Catherine the Great. This general may have retained his background colors of white and yellow indicating that he was an officer in the Grenadiers.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2005, 08:59:28 PM »
So, this would not be a costume piece? I ask because I do come accross such things, but think the quality is not all that fine.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Daniel Briere

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2005, 04:35:17 PM »
Scott: from what you wrote, I assume that the braid is gold. Am I right? (Looks silver on the photo). How wide is it?

David: on September 10, 1910, three regiments were renamed and given Catherine II’s monogram:
81st “Empress Catherine II” Apsheronsky Infantry, 6th “Empress Catherine II” Glukhovsky Dragoons and 1st “Empress Catherine II” Zaporozhsky (Kuban) Cossacks.  I’m not sure about the braid color but yellow and white piping could only be grenadiers, or His Majesty’s Cuirassiers (if braid is silver) and unfortunately none of these regiments had Catherine II’s monogram.

If I’m not mistaken, monograms from the 1st Moscow “Catherine II’s” Cadet School were gold/yellow, so I would rule out the theory of the general assigned to this school.

As Patrokl wrote, there were no one star generals in late Imperial Russia, but there indeed was a one star rank for military functionaries. Some had shoulder boards in the military style but they were more narrow than the military.

Daniel Briere

David_Pritchard

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2005, 09:38:45 PM »
Quote
David: on September 10, 1910, three regiments were renamed and given Catherine II’s monogram:81st “Empress Catherine II” Apsheronsky Infantry, 6th “Empress Catherine II” Glukhovsky Dragoons and 1st “Empress Catherine II” Zaporozhsky (Kuban) Cossacks.  I’m not sure about the braid color but yellow and white piping could only be grenadiers, or His Majesty’s Cuirassiers (if braid is silver) and unfortunately none of these regiments had Catherine II’s monogram.


Dear Daniel,

It is amazing what just a few months time can make. The 1910 Uniform Regulations that I consulted were put into force on 10 May 1910, four months before the change of names for the three regiments that you cited. Interestingly, all three of the regiments that you mentioned are missing in my book. The publisher must have known of the future changes and did not include them on purpose. Could it be be that there were errata pages sent out to the original subscribers when changes were made?

DAP

Offline Daniel Briere

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2005, 11:33:16 PM »
Hi David!

Is the book you consulted by Colonel Shenk? If so, some early changes were added by the publisher in his 1910 book but the later changes were not added until Shenk published 8 more tables of uniforms a year later (as of April 1st, 1911). The autumn 1910 changes were added to the 1911 book as errata pages but with no mention of the date they were adopted (I found them in the books by Zweguintzow). I doubt very much the editor would have known about the name changes many months in advance, as they would have needed approval by the Emperor before being announced.


Daniel Briere

David_Pritchard

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Re: Shoulder Board ID
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2005, 12:12:00 AM »
Dear Daniel,

The author/compiler of my booket was Staff Colonel V. K. Shenk and it was produced by the Publishing Depot of the Book and Geographical Publishing Store of the Imperial Staff, Nevsky Prospekt No. 4.

DAP